On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 2:35 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for reminding me. I didn't see them. > > On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 18:15:41 UTC+3, Terren Suydam wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 3:03 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> For this you don't even need idealism. You can just take the brain as a >>> black box ready to receive the proper input in order to generate the proper >>> qualia. You will most likely not detect infrared light and others, simply >>> because the black box is not made to detect them. >>> >> >> You don't get to say, in one context, that the brain doesn't exist, and >> then in another, it's a black box that generates qualia. Not to mention, a >> black box also has zero explanatory power. I'm asking you directly about >> cochlear implants, which literally enable the generation of new qualia for >> deaf people. How does that happen? >> > > As usual, I'm very careful with the way in which I'm using words. The > definition that I'm using for "existence" is the act of self-reference of > looking-back-at-itself. Based on this definition, existence is only > ontologically subjective, therefore no objects-independent-of-consciousness > exist. So the "brain" regarded as an object-independent-of-consciousness > doesn't exist. But a system of interacting consciousness can exist. > Therefore we can call that system a "black box" and allow the black box to > exist. In the black box, depending on how consciousnesses interact you can > have certain qualia and not have others. Cochlear implants enable the > generation of new qualia for deaf people in the same way that a bike enable > the generation of new qualia for people that never rode a bike before. > You really can't see the difference between the way a cochlear implant creates new qualia, versus riding a bike? If you want to be taken seriously you'll have to do better than that. > >> I'm color blind. My eyes don't have as many photo-receptors that detect >> frequencies corresponding to the color red. Because of that, my experience >> of color is different from ordinary people, and this can be proven. >> Photo-receptors detect electromagnetic oscillation of specific frequencies, >> and this leads somehow to the experience of color. If photoreceptors don't >> exist, how do you explain this? >> >> You have a system of interacting consciousnesses from which certain > interactions are missing. > That doesn't explain anything. > > >> I'm really looking for explanations I can sink my teeth into. Why am I >> colorblind, but you're not? And why does it seem to matter that >> physiologically, you have photoreceptors that I do not have? There are >> objective facts about our nervous systems that have consequences for >> subjective experience. We could go through a million examples, including >> brain damage, drugs, brain tumors, Alzheimers, genetic defects. Should we >> just throw all those explanatory mechanisms away? >> >> > You can still do "science" even in dreams. Even in dreams you can see > unicorns flying and conclude that if you jump on their backs, you will be > able to fly. It turns out that even though the objects that appear in our > consciousness exist only as qualia, they nevertheless obey certain rules. > And we can use those rules to do technology. Some people call it "science", > but my definition for "science" is the study of existence, and since > existence is only ontologically subjective, science is only the study of > consciousness. > > If you're equating science done in dreams and science done in reality, you're a solipsist. Terren > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
