On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 2:35 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Thanks for reminding me. I didn't see them. > > On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 18:15:41 UTC+3, Terren Suydam wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 3:03 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> >>> For this you don't even need idealism. You can just take the brain as a >>> black box ready to receive the proper input in order to generate the proper >>> qualia. You will most likely not detect infrared light and others, simply >>> because the black box is not made to detect them. >>> >> >> You don't get to say, in one context, that the brain doesn't exist, and >> then in another, it's a black box that generates qualia. Not to mention, a >> black box also has zero explanatory power. I'm asking you directly about >> cochlear implants, which literally enable the generation of new qualia for >> deaf people. How does that happen? >> > > As usual, I'm very careful with the way in which I'm using words. The > definition that I'm using for "existence" is the act of self-reference of > looking-back-at-itself. Based on this definition, existence is only > ontologically subjective, therefore no objects-independent-of-consciousness > exist. So the "brain" regarded as an object-independent-of-consciousness > doesn't exist. But a system of interacting consciousness can exist. > Therefore we can call that system a "black box" and allow the black box to > exist. In the black box, depending on how consciousnesses interact you can > have certain qualia and not have others. Cochlear implants enable the > generation of new qualia for deaf people in the same way that a bike enable > the generation of new qualia for people that never rode a bike before. > You really can't see the difference between the way a cochlear implant creates new qualia, versus riding a bike? If you want to be taken seriously you'll have to do better than that. > >> I'm color blind. My eyes don't have as many photo-receptors that detect >> frequencies corresponding to the color red. Because of that, my experience >> of color is different from ordinary people, and this can be proven. >> Photo-receptors detect electromagnetic oscillation of specific frequencies, >> and this leads somehow to the experience of color. If photoreceptors don't >> exist, how do you explain this? >> >> You have a system of interacting consciousnesses from which certain > interactions are missing. > That doesn't explain anything. > > >> I'm really looking for explanations I can sink my teeth into. Why am I >> colorblind, but you're not? And why does it seem to matter that >> physiologically, you have photoreceptors that I do not have? There are >> objective facts about our nervous systems that have consequences for >> subjective experience. We could go through a million examples, including >> brain damage, drugs, brain tumors, Alzheimers, genetic defects. Should we >> just throw all those explanatory mechanisms away? >> >> > You can still do "science" even in dreams. Even in dreams you can see > unicorns flying and conclude that if you jump on their backs, you will be > able to fly. It turns out that even though the objects that appear in our > consciousness exist only as qualia, they nevertheless obey certain rules. > And we can use those rules to do technology. Some people call it "science", > but my definition for "science" is the study of existence, and since > existence is only ontologically subjective, science is only the study of > consciousness. > > If you're equating science done in dreams and science done in reality, you're a solipsist. Terren > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
