> On 29 Apr 2019, at 21:08, [email protected] wrote: > > > > On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 8:41:18 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 26 Apr 2019, at 22:25, [email protected] <javascript:> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 2:04:31 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote: >>> Consciousness. Red is red. >>> >>> On Friday, 26 April 2019 10:03:26 UTC+3, [email protected] <> wrote: >>> >>> What specific ontological entity or entities of any science in 2019 does >>> one claim as final - i.e., that ontology is the "true" one? >> >> >> On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 26 Apr 2019, at 10:09, [email protected] <> wrote: >>> >>> That is a good point. >>> >>> And that is the basic framework of Strawsonian panpsychism: >>> >>> Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery. It’s Matter. >>> - >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/opinion/consciousness-isnt-a-mystery-its-matter.html >>> >>> <https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/opinion/consciousness-isnt-a-mystery-its-matter.html> >> >> Yes, the believer in Ontological Matter can get that crazy. When they don’t >> eliminate consciousness, they identify it with matter, but then I have no >> more any idea what they mean by consciousness, nor matter. It like saying >> that apple are oranges, or that dogs are cats, or that music are black spot. >> >> To be sure, I have not read the text in the link, but I doubt it could >> clarify anything like that. Matter and consciousness are typically very >> different things. Consciousness is ascribed to person, matter is ascribed to >> their (local) bodies. Both exist phenomenologically, with digital mechanism, >> but one is far more general than the other, and once (consciousness) is >> responsible from creating, in some sense, the other (matter). >> >> Consciousness needs only small numbers, matter needs the full invariance of >> consciousness on all “similar enough” computations, and use infinities >> (phenomenologically, as the ontology has not infinities). Matter obeys to >> the laws of physics, but consciousness obeys to the laws of mind (the laws >> of Boole and the laws of Boolos, as I sum up sometimes, that is classical >> logic + the laws of self-reference). >> >> Bruno >> >> >> Matter - in the panpsychist view - obeys "the laws of physics", but those >> "laws" are are an incomplete theory of matter. >> >> There is a physical and psychical aspect to any complete theory of matter - >> in the panpsychist view. >> >> There may be an immaterialist science, and the pro-"matter" people may have >> some 'splainin' to do, but in the panpsychist context, matter is both >> physical and psychical. > > The problem with panpsychism, is in “pan”, not in psychisme. Then I have no > clue what it could mean that matter is psychical. With mechanism, matter is > dreamed, never experienced. There is no matter per se.It cannot be psychical, > because it cannot be, at all. > > Bruno > > > Of > > "matter is dreamed" > > or "matter [the only basic substance*] possesses psychical properties" > > the second seems more like science.
“Seeming" can be defeating. With mechanism, a dream is the experience related to some (precise) type of computation, and the computations exist, provably, in arithmetic. Matter is a sort of god (indeed sometimes called the second god of Aristotle, and it is a god in the sense of greek theology (not to confuse with greek mythology)), and I have given a set of experiments to test its plausible existence. But the test confirms mechanism, and not materialism. To invoke a god (Matter) to prevent some beings to not ben able to be conscious looks like pseudo-religion to me, if not a sort of racism. Bruno > > * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism#Physicalism_and_materialism > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism#Physicalism_and_materialism> > > @philipthrift > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
