On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 11:20 PM Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 2:00 PM Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:52 PM Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM Jason Resch <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:04 PM Bruce Kellett < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: Jason Resch <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 6:02 PM Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:42 PM Jason Resch <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 8:16 AM Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then with mechanism, we get the many-histories from a simple fact >>>>>>>>> to prove: all computations are realised in all models of arithmetic. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But arithmetic does not exist independently of the human mind, and >>>>>>>> mechanism is manifestly a pipe dream. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> You sound certain. What is your evidence? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The is no evidence for mathematical realism, >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is plenty given in my other post to you. Even if there were >>>>> none, what evidence do you have against it for you to be so sure it is >>>>> false? (mathematical realism is the leading philosophy of mathematics, >>>>> among mathematicians, >>>>> >>>>> On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.The other days of the week most >>>>> mathematicians are nominalists! (And I had this from a professional >>>>> mathematician!) >>>>> >>>> >>>> That's an anecdote, not data. >>>> >>> >>> The truth of these issues is not determined by counting heads. >>> >> >> It does not. But your conviction that Platonism is false requires some >> justification or reason, given that it would overturn a predominate theory >> in a field. >> > > No, you have to give evidence in support of platonism, given that this > view has been a philosophical failure, leading to a dead end, not a > progressive theory. > That is false. Taking the pre-existence of all conscious states (a natural consequences of Platonism) is the only theory in science I am aware of that plausibly explains why our universe has: - https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.01826.pdf - Simple physical laws that are probabilistic - Persistent regularities - An external world that contains the observer - Inter-subjective agreement on physical laws - Simple initial conditions - Observation of a universe that evolves in time - Observation of a universe with an absolute beginning in time - https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0001020.pdf - Why Occam's razor works - Why the postulates of QM hold - http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHAL.pdf - Why physics is quantum mechanical - Why certain qualia are incommunicable Why do you consider it a failure? Where does Nominalism succeed where Platonism fails? > > >> I await your reason, argument, or evidence. >> > > Arithmetical realism is part of platonism, if not the whole of it. And > arithmetical realism is manifestly false -- numbers are not things. > What is a thing anyway? Maybe the relationships are all that exist. Maybe the world is made of math. At first that sounded nuts, but when I thought about it I hard to wonder, what exactly is the other option? That the world is made of "things"? What the hell is a "things"? It was one of those concepts that fold under the slightest interrogation. Look closely at any object and you find it's an amalgamation of particles. But look closely at the particles and you find that they are irreducible representations of the Poincaré symmetry group--whatever that meant. The point is, particles, at bottom, look a lot like math. -- Amanda Gefter What separates the existent from the non-existent? It might be that at a certain level of description it becomes impossible to adequately represent the world other than mathematically. ... So yeah, you might think, if we eventually did have a one-to-one mapping, what could be the grounds for denying that reality was mathematical? I'm not really sure. I suppose I'm very skeptical of anything in philosophy that purports to explain the difference between abstract maths and maths that's substantiated. Because in the end, what could possibly explain that difference in terms of? Like, I reject the question 'What breathes fire into the equations?' Because anything you say is just gonna be figurative, right? Because you'd say, 'Well, there's the abstract maths and then the actual universe is a sort of substructure of all the possible structure there could be. So what's the difference between the uninstantiated structure and the instantiated structure?' Well, the philosopher will say there's a primitive instantiation relation or something--you could invent some metaphysical language to talk about it, but to me that's no different from saying that some of the maths has pixie dust in it. It's not going to do any work. Because what could it possibly connect to that would have any meaning? If you ask questions in science like 'What causes an earthquake?' you appeal to conceptual resources and those are non-empty because they're tied to observation. But maths--pure maths isn't tied to observation. If the theory of everything id a mathematical theory, how would you test it? It would have to have some content that has to do with something other than mathematics. -- James Ladyman, when asked "Does that mean the physical world is made of math?" > > >> what is your alternative?) >>>>> >>>>> Nominalism. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Incompleteness disproves nominalism. Arithmetical truth was proven not >>>> only to be not human defined, but to be not human definable. >>>> >>> >>> What has arithmetical truth got to do with it? >>> >> >> The independence of arithmetical truth *is* Platonism. With it you get >> all the consequences of that infinite truth: >> >> - The truth that 9 is composite implies the existence of its factor 3. >> - The truth of the Nth state of the machine during the execution of a >> Kth program implies the existence of the execution trace of program K, >> etc. >> >> > You are making the usual mistake of taking the existential quantifier over > a domain as an ontological statement. > Why should one's ontological opinions take precedence over what our best theories tell us? You have still not addressed that nominalism is disproved by incompleteness. > > >> Numbers are just names, not existing things. >>> >> >> Again, where is your evidence? I gave you mine in support of Platonism. >> > > You gave no viable evidence for platonism. > See above. When simple theories explain many facts, that's generally taken as evidence in support of the theory. > > >> If you have no evidence contrary to Platonism you should at least >> remain undecided/agnostic/humble on the matter. >> > > Why? Platonism rests on a confusion. I reject that confusion, and hence > platonism. > What is the confusion? > What replaces it at the simplest level is nominalism -- numbers are names, > not things. > > Let's define what is meant by "thing" first. Then we can debate whether or not numbers meet that definition, and whether or not it is important to the question of whether numbers and their relations could explain the appearance of reality. But before that, let's address this question: *Do you believe it is possible (in principle) that the physical universe could be explained from something more primitive?* > and mechanism is a failed idea because it cannot account for our >>>>>> experience. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So you believe an AI that was functionally equivalent to you would be >>>>> a philosophical zombie? >>>>> >>>>> Not at all. That does not follow. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If it doesn't follow then the functionally equivalent AI would be >>>> conscious. Therefore mechanism. What am I missing? >>>> >>> >>> The fact that mechanism does not follow from the possibility of AI. >>> >> >> Correct, it doesn't. But it does follow from the consciousness of AI, for >> if AI is not conscious, then you get philosophical zombies. (as I stated >> above). >> > > I do not accept your argument. I have rejected your basic theory, so I > thereby reject all its consequences. If the AI is functionally equivalent > to a brain, then AI is conscious as the brain is conscious -- consciousness > is a function of the brain. > "consciousness is a function of the brain" is the definition of mechanism (a.k.a. functionalism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_(philosophy_of_mind)>). > > >> (Mechanism is the leading theory of mind among philosophers of mind, >>>>> >>>>> Maybe for some philosophers of mind. But there are many other >>>>> possibilities, most of which are more convincing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> what is your alternative?) >>>>> >>>>> Why should I have an alternative? I can know that a theory does not >>>>> work without providing a theory that does work. >>>>> >>>>> Above you said there are other possibilities which are more >>>> convincing. What are they and why are they more convincing? >>>> >>> >>> I do not have to provide a final theory. >>> >> >> No one is asking you two. You said there are alternatives which are more >> convincing. I am just curious what you were referring to. >> > > Mind is what brains do. > That is functionalism (mechanism). It was developed by Alan Turing, Hilary Putnam, Jeffry Fodor, and held by most philosophers of mind today. > > >> Anything else would be more convincing than mechanism, entailing, as it >>> does, arithmetical realism. >>> >>> >> Mechanism does not entail arithmetical realism. They are two separate >> assumptions. >> > > OK, then you develop mechanism and all its consequences without assuming > arithmetical realism at some point. > > Why have this prohibition on making certain assumptions and seeing what the consequences might be? This sounds like "Don't ask that question". What is your aversion to this? I get the feeling there is some consequences of arithmetical realism that you don't like, but you haven't stated what that is. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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