On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark
wrote:
On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift
<[email protected]> wrote:
/> Information processing absent
actual first-class entities of *qualia* (or
experiences) can only produce zombies. One needs
information processing operating in a material
substrate where those entities are available to be
combined and manipulated./
//So something can behave intelligently but if it is
lacking "f/irst-class entities of *qualia*/" it can only
be a intelligent zombie. But "/first-class qualia/"
sounds like consciousness to me, so you're basically
saying only conscious things can be conscious. A
tautology has the virtue of always being true but it
involves a unnecessary non-required pointless repetition
and reiteration of words where you end up at the exact
same place you started with. And that is typical of all
consciousness theories.
John K Clark
To be clearer: Qualia (the "ingredients" of consciousness)
cannot be reduced to information processing.
That's nothing but unsupported assertion. It's not even
clear what "reduced" means in that context.
(That is what I mean by "first-class". If qualia could be
reduced to information processing, then they would
derivative from information, or "second-class".)
Is life derivative from chemistry? Only within a certain
environment. Same with information processing. In general
it's streams of bits being processed being changed according
to some algorithm. But it's qualia if the streams are in
some entity whose environment and actions give meaning to the
information, like "I've got a headache and I'm going to lie
down."
Brent
Isn't *qualia can be reduced to information processing* the
unsupported assertion?
No. It's very well supported. Interfere with information
processing by drugs or electrical stimulus of the brain and qualia
are changed or eliminated.
Brent
*Information processing (IP) is necessary for consciousness*, but IP
has to occur in a substrate that produces qualia. *Stop the IP and you
stop consciousness.* But /the same IP/ *in a different substrate*
could be consciousnessless.
The above substate is the material of the brain: neurons,
neurochemistry, glia, ...
Mere supposition. It's just the complement of the claim that machines
can never really think. A pathetic hubris.
A simulation of gravity running in a smartphone does not produce gravity.
It does in the simulated world.
Brent
People talk of telepathy and precognition as delusional - broadly
speaking, it is. But the "IP delusion" (that consciousness is
substate-independent IP) is up there.
@philipthrift
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