On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 3 Jun 2019, at 16:21, Lawrence Crowell <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > > On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 6:01:05 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 3 Jun 2019, at 04:59, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 02-Jun-2019, at 11:38 PM, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Here the materialist often fails, as they talk like if they knew primitive >> matter exists, >> >> >> A straw man. Nothing I wrote referred to *primitive* matter. >> >> >> The Quran does mention the existence of something before and beyond the >> ‘universe/ cosmos/ space’ we live in. This may be of interest: >> https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2019/01/space-before-and-beyond.html >> >> >> >> That is still rather Aristotelian. The first half of the Quran is better >> than that, it contains the just reference to Judaism, and you can feel the >> openness to neoplatonism, where indeed there was something deeper than the >> physical reality at play at the origine of the physical reality (the how >> and why being indeed addressed in the Quran). >> The second half of the Quran is more problematic, and in my opinion, not >> written by the same people, or something happened to them. It is >> problematic both on the metaphysical level, but also on the ethical level, >> doubly so if it is taken literally (as it contains basic hate speech >> toward non-muslims, especially the jews, even some call for murdering some >> people, or sentences which can be interpreted easily that way). >> > > There are the Mecca and Medina portions of the Koran. The Mecca Koran is > the start, at least chronologically, and some of it reads a bit like Psalms > and Proverbs. As the story goes Muhammad wrote this in Mecca, but was later > thrown out. The second portion is presumed to be written by Muhammad in > Medina, and there he was piqued to say the least. This part of the Koran is > pretty sharp edged with eschatology. Some think these two parts were > written by different people, though saying that publicly in parts of the > Islamic world will get your head served on a platter. > > > Unfortunately, just being a christian is enough for that in many Islamic > countries. > > We have resist and partially win the battle for separating state and > church, and our political correctness makes many of us tolerating the > intolerable, and cutting the branch on which we stand. > > Thank you for confirming my feeling after a personal reading of the Quran. > > The problem is not Islam, but the fact that since Al Gazhali, Islam has > confined itself in literalism, which is frightening concerning the second > part of the Quran, and the practical implementations of that religious > oppression in many countries which called themselves islamic. > > Before Al Ghazali, the muslims translated the greek, made progress in > science, and, “thanks to the fanaticism” will make all this flying away in > Europa, leading to the Renaissance (still not transformed due to the > (understandable after so many years of religious oppression) confusion > between religion and anti-science). > > Theology has to come back at the academy of science, because like > free-will need determinacy, liberty needs rigour. > > Bruno >
I am not in favor of extra-judicial punishments against Muslims or anything of that sort. However, after reading a translation of the Koran I found myself scratching my head. Islam actually teaches it is acceptable to lie to kafirs, or nonbelievers. There are other aspects to this, and Islam has a history of gaining adherents not be voluntary conversion but by conquest. Of course Christianity has a history of similar activity, but at least with Christianity there is more measure of voluntary conversions. With Islam there has been a long history of either outright conquest, or by out populating a region and then declaring an Islamic state, caliphate etc. There are some murmurs of this with respect to Europe. Once that happens then a Christian or Jew is relegated to d'himus (spelling might be off) and you are secondary status. If you think about it, we kept Russians from immigrating here if they refused to renounce Communism, and in some ways religion is not that different from political ideology. With religion "Big Brother" is supernatural. LC -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ad731ccd-d11e-4861-ae2c-bc933c24256a%40googlegroups.com.
