You talk of life as if is some kind of mechanism, which is not. Life is a product of consciousness. So your entire analysis is beyond meaninglessness.
On Tuesday, 23 July 2019 22:07:05 UTC+3, smitra wrote: > > On 23-07-2019 04:10, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: > > On 7/22/2019 3:55 PM, smitra wrote: > >> This doesn't address the fundamental problems. People like Leslie > >> Orgel have explained why metabolism first is a non-starter. > > > > And you think Nick Lane hasn't read Orgel? > > Orgel's original arguments can be generalized into a no-go argument that > precludes all existing biochemical models for abiogenesis. This has been > pointed out by Paul Davies. However, Davies then argues that this means > that the problem lies with the fundamental laws of physics, but one can > also circumvent the problems raised by sticking to ordinary physics and > getting to the right structures within which the conventional models can > work. > > > > >> He has argued on the basis of the difficulties of getting to > >> functional RNA, and more recently people like Paul Davies have pointed > >> out the fundamental nature of this problem. My suggestion is not some > >> new model, it simply makes conventional models such as e.g. the > >> protocell work better by putting these in a micro-environment that > >> itself has been forged in far from equilibrium conditions. The > >> micro-environments break the symmetry that can steer the chemistry > >> that takes place inside more coherently in one or the other direction > >> compared to whatever chemistry can go on in a macroscopic environment. > >> > >> Keep in mind that the simplest functional living organism is likely > >> going to be similar to a microbe, involving hundreds of thousands of > >> different enzymes that are then all necessary to make each other and > >> maintain and copy the organism. There thus exists a massive gap from > >> simple chemistry to the simplest self-reproducing lifeforms. The only > >> plausible solution is then a scenario where simpler systems that would > >> not function good enough to be able to reproduce with a multiplication > >> factor of larger than one, can reproduce with a multiplication factor > >> larger than 1 in a protected environment. > > > > Which Lane and others postulate to alkaline "white smokers". > > This is impossible, because you need to build structures on the > molecular scale without the enzymes that living organisms have > available. Local thermal equilibrium won't allow chemical reactions to > proceed differently a few atoms distance away at one site of a large > molecule compared to another. So, one needs to consider processes in an > environment where local thermal equilibrium will be violated on a > molecular scale. This can happen in a cryogenic environment in space > where UV radiation creates radical and ions and occasional cosmic ray > interaction causes heating allowing nearby ions and radicals to form > bonds. Such processes have been studied with the ail of getting to the > fundamental building blocks of life, but that doesn't really work > because of the random nature of the products. > > But under those conditions one will also get extremely large clusters of > organics, and they can serve as the housing within which one can have > the right structures for conventional models to work. Confinement in a > small volume is essential as there will be as small number of structures > inside each such system. This means that the net effect of all the > structures inside any particular system will differ due to statistical > fluctuations. In a larger volume, the average effects of the structures > would average out to some mean effect, also the effect the structures on > the surface have on the chemistry taking place in the entire volume > would be less the larger the volume becomes. > > Saibal > > > > > > Brent > > > >> But that environment must then have features that would have to play > >> the role of the more sophisticated molecular machinery that makes the > >> more advanced life forms work. Fixed features on the inner surface > >> area of a micro-environment can then work. The effect such features > >> have over the entire volume can be non-negligible in a small system. > >> > >> Saibal > >> > >> > >> On 07-07-2019 08:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: > >>> I think Nick Lane's metabolism-first theory, which he discusses in > >>> his > >>> book "The Vital Question", is more plausible. There's good online > >>> talk by Lane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhPrirmk8F4. > >>> > >>> Brent > >>> > >>> On 7/6/2019 8:32 AM, smitra wrote: > >>>> https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.01945 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> A followup article which focuses more on the mathematical issues is > >>>> under construction, the key points are: > >>>> > >>>> 1) In interstellar space, simple organic compounds captured in small > >>>> ice grains were subject to UV radiation and occasional heating due > >>>> to incident cosmic rays (CR). This induced a bond percolation > >>>> process that led to large clusters of organic molecules on a time > >>>> scale of $\gtrsim 10^6$ years. > >>>> > >>>> 2) On a proto-planet, such clusters can merge into loosely bound > >>>> superclusters. The deep interior of such superclusters can provide > >>>> for chemical micro-environments in which conventional models of > >>>> abiogenesis driven by cold-warm cycles can be considered. > >>>> > >>>> 3) Rapid fluctuations in the chemical potentials of certain chemical > >>>> compounds that can penetrate the supercluster, will be damped down. > >>>> Long term gradual and periodic changes then dominate, allowing any > >>>> biochemical systems inside the superclusters to more easily evolve > >>>> toward exploiting the conditions in their micro-environments, > >>>> compared to a similar system in the outside environment. > >>>> > >>>> 4) As the supercluster breaks up, the system experiences more of the > >>>> shorter term fluctuations that has more of a random character. The > >>>> system can then evolve to adapt to these fluctuations, when doing so > >>>> right from the start might not have worked. > >>>> > >>>> 5) On a small fraction of the superclusters these processes led to > >>>> microbes capable of surviving in the outside environment. > >>>> > >>>> 6) Microbes were transferred to Earth via a collision of a > >>>> microbe-containing proto-planet with the Moon. Fragments containing > >>>> microbes resulting from the giant impact rained down on the Earth. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Saibal > >>>> > >>>> On 06-07-2019 10:48, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote: > >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4sP1E1Jd_Y [1] > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >>>>> send an email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>>>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a43531f9-d34c-4806-97f0-7665befc7e95%40googlegroups.com > > >>>>> [2]. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Links: > >>>>> ------ > >>>>> [1] > >>>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4sP1E1Jd_Y&fbclid=IwAR03cRVkBTOeYnPldcuLzFGCNiWqCR0dE5FENXF9JJtRlk75sbq5Dh2wxcY > > >>>>> [2] > >>>>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a43531f9-d34c-4806-97f0-7665befc7e95%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > >>>> > >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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