On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 5:22:39 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote: > > I am suspecting that someone who works with Hilbert space, might see > themselves as Hugh Everett friendly? Throw in Bryce DeWitt and John A. > Wheeler too. > > I am fairly agnostic about quantum interpretations. They are auxiliary postulates or physical axioms that appear to have no falsifiable content.
LC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lawrence Crowell <[email protected] <javascript:>> > To: Everything List <[email protected] <javascript:>> > Sent: Sun, Jul 28, 2019 5:42 pm > Subject: Re: We Are Legion We Are Bob Bobiverse Book 1 > > > > On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 5:09:56 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 27 Jul 2019, at 20:42, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail. com> > wrote: > > On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 8:38:12 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > All that assumes that infinity exists for any meaningful use of the word > “exists” and as far as I know nobody has ever found a infinite number of > anything. Mathematics can write stories about the infinite in the language > of mathematics but are they fiction or nonfiction? > > John k Clark > > > Infinity is not a number in the usual sense, but more a cardinality of a > set. Infinity has been a source of trouble for some. I work with Hilbert > spaces that have a form of construction that is finite, but where the > finite upper limit is not bounded ---- it can always be increased. This is > because of entropy bounds, such as the Bekenstein bound for black holes and > Bousso bounds on AdS, that demands a finite state space for local physics. > George Cantor made some set theoretic sense out of infinities, even a > hierarchy of them. This avoids some difficulties. However, I think that > mathematics in general is not as rich if you work exclusively in finitude. > Fraenkel-Zermelo set theory even has an axiom of infinity. The main point > is with axiomatic completeness, and mathematics with infinity is more > complete. > > > Mechanism provides an ontological finitism (what exists are only 0, s(0), > s(s(0)), …), but it explains why those finite objects will believe > correctly in some phenomenological infinite (already needed to get an idea > of what “finite” could mean. > The infinite is phenomenologically real, but has no ontology. > > No first order logical theories can really define the difference between > finite and infinite. Even ZF, despite its axiom of infinity is not able to > do that, in the sense that it too has non standard model, in which we can > have a finite number greater than all the “standard” natural numbers 0, > s(0) … > > I am not sure why you say that adding an axiom of infinity makes a theory > more complete. There are sense it which it only aggravate incompleteness. > > Once a theory is rich enough to define and prove the existence of a > universal machine, that theory becomes essentially undecidable (which means > that not only it is undecidable, but it is un-completable: all the > effective consistent extensions are undecidable. > > Bruno > > > I am not a set theory maven particularly. I only know the basic things and > some aspects of advanced topics I have read. The recursive function is to > take 0 and "compute" s(0) and then ss(0) and so forth. The entire set is > recursively enumerable and the idea that given 0 and computing s(0) one has > ss^n(0) = s^{n+1}(0) is induction. That this leads to a countably infinite > set is recursively enumerable and that is not something one can "machine > compute." I think this is this "extension." > > LC > > > > > > Richard Feynman talked about Greek mathematics, the axiomatic formal > systems of mathematics, and Babylonian mathematics that is set up for > practical matters. I have no particular preference for either, and think it > is interesting to switch hats. > > LC > > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 7:36 AM Lawrence Crowell <[email protected]> > wrote: > > On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 10:02:39 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 12:48 PM John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > > When I was younger I read a lot of science fiction, I don't do it so much > anymore and technically I didn't do it this time either but I did listen to > a audio book called "We Are Legion We Are Bob" it's the first book of > the Bobiverse trilogy and I really enjoyed it. You can get a free 5 minute > sample of the book here: > > We Are Legion (We Are Bob): Bobiverse, Book 1 > <https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/B01L082SCI/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=> > > It tells the story of Bob, a young man who has just sold his software > company for a crazy amount of money and decides that after a decade of hard > work he's going to spent the rest of his life just goofing off. On a whim > he signs with a Cryonics company to have his head frozen after his death > and then just hours later while crossing the street to go to a science > fiction convention is hit by a car and dies. Five subjective seconds later > he wakes up and finds that a century has passed and he's been uploaded into > a computer. This is all in the opening chapter. > > Parts of the story are unrealistic but parts of it are not, I think it was > Isaac > Asimov who said it's OK for a science fiction writer to violate the known > laws of physics but only if he knows he's doing it, and when Dennis Taylor, > the creator of Bob universe, does it at one point with faster than light > communication it's obvious that he knowns it. And I can't deny it makes for > a story that is more fun to read. I have now read (well listened) to all 3 > Bob books and, although parts are a little corny and parts a little too > Star Trek for my taste, on the whole I greatly enjoyed them all. They're a > lot of fun. > > The only other novel I can think of that treats the subject of uploading > with equal intelligence is "The Silicon Man". > > The Silicon Man by Charles Platt > <https://www.amazon.com/Silicon-Man-Cortext-Charles-Platt/dp/1888869143> > > John K Clark > > > Consider any of the earlier novels by Greg Egan, the Australian hard > science fiction write based in Perth, WA: particularly "Permutation City" > (1994). > > Bruce > > > I had this idea of a science fiction story of where minds are stored in > machines in order to "eternally" punish them. The idea is that if a million > seconds in the simulated world is a second in the outer world then one can > in effect construct a near version of eternal hell-fire. The setting is a > world governed by complete terror. Then Egan came out with Permutation > city, which explores a similar set of ideas. > > The problem with the idea of putting minds into machines is that machines > can run recursive functions or algorithms, but in a number system such as > Peano's we make the inductive leap that the successor of any number can't > be the same number or zero in all (infinite number) cases. We can make an > inference from a recursively enumerable set. I would then think that the > idea of putting minds into machines, or robotic consciousness, is at this > time an unknown, maybe an unknowable, proposition. > > LC > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > msgid/everything-list/ 44ed303e-5650-430b-b255- > bc28392194ae%40googlegroups. com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/44ed303e-5650-430b-b255-bc28392194ae%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everyth...@ googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > msgid/everything-list/ 1c518015-9dc2-47a8-968c- > 3b6c8eed1594%40googlegroups. com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/1c518015-9dc2-47a8-968c-3b6c8eed1594%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/633a983a-30bb-4cc7-bcd4-5eac8636b699%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/633a983a-30bb-4cc7-bcd4-5eac8636b699%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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