On Sunday, October 13, 2019 at 1:24:37 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/13/2019 7:36 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 13, 2019 at 12:00:53 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 11:48:33 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 11:30:19 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/12/2019 7:21 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 8:07:46 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10/12/2019 5:46 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> What does "realized" mean? made real? Being real is a metaphysical >>>>>>> concept. Bohr never said anything about components of a superposition >>>>>>> being real. He famously said “Physics is not about how the world >>>>>>> is, it is about what we can say about the world” and “Everything we >>>>>>> call >>>>>>> real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.” >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The latter comment is ridiculous. Aren't protons, neutrons and >>>>>> electrons real? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ask Bohr. You never answer my questions; why should I answer yours. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What questions haven't I answered??? AG >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Scan up until you see this symbol "?" >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>> >>>> I explained what "realized" means by giving an example; S's cat, alive >>>> and dead simultaneously. >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a representation in the theory. Every measurement that >>>> "realizes" its state finds it to be one or the other. So what's the >>>> operational significance of "being realized"? Schroedinger's whole point >>>> was that an alive and dead cat is never *realized*. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>> >>> As I previously suggested, since there is no operator that has those cat >>> states as eigenstates, S's example was probably meant to falsify the then >>> prevailing (and continuing) interpretation of superposition, as it leads to >>> an absurdity. It's not just about the cat! But the case of spin could be an >>> exception to my general claim that it's a fallacy to interpret a >>> superposition to mean the system so described, is in all component states >>> simultaneously. AG >>> >> >> S's cat scenario was not simply about the fate of a cat. After all, we >> already knew a cat can't be alive and dead simultaneously. It must have >> been to show the fallacy of the prevailing interpretation of superposition. >> AG >> > > Incidentally, as I pointed out in a previous discussion of this issue, > decoherence doesn't help. Even though it is extremely rapid, say 10^(-20) > sec, there is still a finite duration when, according to the standard > interpretation of superposition, the cat it is alive and dead > simultaneously. LC might see this as nit-picking, but it isn't. We know a > cat cannot be alive and dead simultaneously regardless of the time > duration, however short. > > > What are you talking about? Even when someone dies in a hospital, hooked > up to all kinds of electronic recording instruments, the time of death > can't be determined to the second, much less 1e-20sec. > > Brent >
What are YOU talking about? I just made a GUESS about the decoherence time! Whatever it is, it doesn't change my conclusion. If there's a uncertainty in time, are you claiming the cat can be alive and dead during any duration? Is this what decoherence theory offers? AG > > So this result, when apply decoherence, doesn't avoid the superposition > fallacy illustrated by S's cat. It can be traced to the interpretation of > the superposition of (|decayed> + |undecayed>) of the radioactive source. AG > >> >>>> >>>> Also, I said I would get back to you about spin superpositions when I >>>> have time to research the issue. Other than those items, I honestly have >>>> no >>>> idea what you're complaining about. Try asking me again. AG >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/57880cde-6295-4459-95c5-2d5ecef15133%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/57880cde-6295-4459-95c5-2d5ecef15133%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f6b15402-e17f-4e85-8966-15ed4d2e6f88%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f6b15402-e17f-4e85-8966-15ed4d2e6f88%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/1bd0de4b-a913-417c-b100-753772d39ff2%40googlegroups.com.
