On 12/10/2019 7:35 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 11:23 AM Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be
<mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote:
/> mind is not much what it does, as what it feels,/
I don't think much of the Star Trek/Mr.Spock philosophy. I think
something could be conscious and unintelligent but not the other way
around. And I don't think it's feelings that distinguishes humans from
the other animals, it's intelligence.
>> I don't think mind (intelligence + consciousness) is a form of
matter anymore than fast is a form of racing car,
/> Very good point!/
Thank you.
>>mind is what a form of matter does when it is organized in certain
ways.
> /OK; if you want to implement that mind relatively to you./
//
Not OK if you want to assign mind to other people. I know for sure
that in my case mind does 2 things, it does intelligence and it does
consciousness, perhaps the same 2 things are true for other people's
mind too but only one of those attributes can be directly tested by
me; so to avoid solipsism I just have to assume that the one implies
the other. Actually I can do a bit more than that, although falling short
of a proof of Euclidean quality there is good evidence that one
implies the other and solipsism is probably untrue:
I am conscious and Evolution produced me.
Evolution can NOT directly detect consciousness in others any better
than I can.
SO consciousness can NOT confer a Evolutionary advantage.
So consciousness can NOT be selected for.
I am more intelagent than a rock.
Evolution CAN directly detect intelligence.
So intelligence CAN confer a Evolutionary advantage.
So intelligence CAN be selected for.
Therefore consciousness is a byproduct of intelligence.
And I think you can even add to that. Intelligence, and it's
evolutionary advantage, is learning and planning. Planning requires
modeling imagined events which include ones self and anticipating not
only what will happen physically, but also how you will feel about the
events: I'll be happy about this. I'll die if that. And for a social
animal the planning must include how other people will react, what
planning it will induce in them, and (discounting solipism) what will
they think of you? Will that good looking blonde abandon Gorg and come
to my cave? So this level of intelligence requires not just awareness,
but self-awareness and the attribution of the same others.
Brent
/> If not, you need to explain more on what is matter, and how it
makes some computations more real than some others. /
A good operational definition of "real" is something that produces
results, so you need to explain why some programs, like those inside a
computer connected to a power supply, produce results, but other
programs, like those printed out in ASCII characters in the pages of a
dusty old book, do not.
John K Clark
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