On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:54:04 AM UTC+3 Bruce wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 10:05 AM George Kahrimanis <geka...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> -2- The "box" (in which Scroedinger's cat is enclosed, with the lethal 
>> apparatus) contains also its "environment", so a quantum descrition of this 
>> box describes the environment also. Therefore I do not agree that 
>> decoherence INSIDE THE BOX will ruin the superposition ASSESSED FROM 
>> OUTSIDE THE BOX. So, Wigner was right. I suppose that Saibal also is right, 
>> though I have not checked that message (sorry).
> Unfortunately for this idea, decoherence does not stop at the box. In the 
> time that Wigner thinks about this before he opens the box, decoherence has 
> enveloped essentially the whole world, so Wigner himself has decohered into 
> either a world with a dead cat or a world with a live cat. He can't 
> dissociate himself from the split that occurs, so from his point of view 
> outside the box, the superposition is long gone, and he has to deal with a 
> simple classical state of either a dead cat or a live cat -- no 
> superposition remains.

I see we have converged on other technical issues, so maybe this works out, 
too. Perhaps I did not make it clear enough that the environment inside 
this "box" is isolated from the environment outside the box. Only then the 
cat is in a superposition as commonly understood. Otherwise we need the 
environment to define the superposition, which Saibal does in the recent 
messages, but I think it is pointless. So, I meant that Wigner is right but 
under this assumption only: of the two environments.

I had always made a distinction between faster-than-light influences, which 
> are intrinsically local since they involve the local transfer of 
> information via some medium (albeit FTL), and non-local influences, which 
> do not involve any FTL transfers. They are instantaneous and non-local.  So 
> that does not violate relativity. [...]

I cannot tell, from this brief comment, whether HV theories become more 
plausible in this way, but I will congratulate you if this is so. I am not 
ready though to enter this discussion now.

George K.

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