On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 4:01 PM John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 2:23 PM Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: > > *> If you believe mental states do not cause anything, then you believe >> philosophical zombies are logically possible (since we could remove >> consciousness without altering behavior).* >> > > Not if consciousness is the inevitable byproduct of intelligece, and I'm > almost certain that it is. > If consciousness is necessary for intelligence, then it's not a byproduct. If on the other hand, consciousness is just a useless byproduct, then it could (logically if not nomologically) be eliminated without affecting intelligent. You seem to want it to be both necessary but also be something that makes no difference to anything (which makes it unnecessary). I would be most curious to hear your thoughts regarding the section of my article on "Conscious behaviors" -- that is, behaviors which (seem to) require consciousness in order to do them. > *> I view mental states as high-level states operating in their own regime >> of causality (much like a Java computer program).* >> > > I have no problem with that, actually it's very similar to my view. > That's good to hear. > >> *> The java computer program can run on any platform, regardless of the >> particular physical nature of it.* >> > > Right. You could even say that "computer program" is not a noun, it is an > adjective, it is the way a computer will behave when the machine's logical > states are organized in a certain way. And "I" is the way atoms behave > when they are organized in a Johnkclarkian way, and "you" is the way atoms > behave when they are organized in a Jasonreschian way. > I'm not opposed to that framing. > > *> I view consciousness as like that high-level control structure. It >> operates within a causal realm where ideas and thoughts have causal >> influence and power, and can reach down to the lower level to do things >> like trigger nerve impulses.* >> > > Consciousness is a high-level description of brain states that can be > extremely useful, but that doesn't mean that lower level and much more > finely grained description of brain states involving nerve impulses, or > even more finely grained descriptions involving electrons and quarks are > wrong, it's just that such level of detail is unnecessary and impractical > for some purposes. > I would even say, that at a certain level of abstraction, they become irrelevant. It is the result of what I call "a Turing firewall", software has no ability to know its underlying hardware implementation, it is an inviolable separation of layers of abstraction, which makes the lower levels invisible to the layers above. So the neurons and molecular forces aren't in the drivers seat for what goes on in the brain. That is the domain of higher level structures and forces. We cannot ignore completely the lower levels, they provide the substrate upon which the higher levels are built, but I think it is an abuse of reductionism that leads people to saying consciousness is an epiphenomenon and doesn't do anything. When no one would try to apply reductionism to explain why, when a glider in the game of life hits a block and causes it to self destruct, that it is due to quantum mechanics in our universe, rather than a consequence of the very different rules of the game of life as they operate in the game of life universe. Jason > John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis > <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis> > qb2 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv28Yh4o5TGpuZ2nfh7NFxYWbi4yVW%2B5v%3DbeXULDqdbPsg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv28Yh4o5TGpuZ2nfh7NFxYWbi4yVW%2B5v%3DbeXULDqdbPsg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUjBw4RA-YBpKERYR5swmxieSUkv_%3DXyttLmszc8XOtd8g%40mail.gmail.com.
