Physical doesn't exist. "Physical" is just an idea in consciousness.
On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:33:33 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 04:23, Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 3:14 PM John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 1:58 PM Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> *>>> ** I think such foresight is a necessary component of >>>>>> intelligence, not a "byproduct".* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>I agree, I can detect the existence of foresight in others and so >>>>> can natural selection, and that's why we have it. It aids in getting our >>>>> genes transferred into the next generation. But I was talking about >>>>> consciousness not foresight, and regardless of how important we >>>>> personally >>>>> think consciousness is, from evolution's point of view it's utterly >>>>> useless, and yet we have it, or at least I have it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> *> you don't seem to think zombies are logically possible,* >>>> >>> >>> Zombies are possible, it's philosophical zombies, a.k.a. smart zombies, >>> that are impossible because it's a brute fact that consciousness is the way >>> data behaves when it is being processed intelligently, or at least >>> that's what I think. Unless you believe that all iterated sequences of >>> "why" or "how" questions go on forever then you must believe that brute >>> facts exist; and I can't think of a better candidate for one than >>> consciousness. >>> >>> *> so then epiphenomenalism is false* >>>> >>> >>> According to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy "*Epiphenomenalism >>> is a position in the philosophy of mind according to which mental states or >>> events are caused by physical states or events in the brain but do not >>> themselves cause anything*". If that is the definition then I believe >>> in Epiphenomenalism. >>> >> >> If you believe mental states do not cause anything, then you believe >> philosophical zombies are logically possible (since we could remove >> consciousness without altering behavior). >> > > Mental states could be necessarily tied to physical states without having > any separate causal efficacy, and zombies would not be logically possible. > Software is necessarily tied to hardware activity: if a computer runs a > particular program, it is not optional that the program is implemented. > However, the software does not itself have causal efficacy, causing current > to flow in wires and semiconductors and so on: there is always a sufficient > explanation for such activity in purely physical terms. > > I view mental states as high-level states operating in their own regime of >> causality (much like a Java computer program). The java computer program >> can run on any platform, regardless of the particular physical nature of >> it. It has in a sense isolated itself from the causality of the electrons >> and semiconductors, and operates in its own realm of the causality of if >> statements, and for loops. Consider this program, for example: >> >> [image: twin-prime-program2.png] >> >> What causes the program to terminate? Is it the inputs, and the logical >> relation of primality, or is it the electrons flowing through the CPU? I >> would argue that the higher-level causality, regarding the logical >> relations of the inputs to the program logic is just as important. It >> determines the physics of things like when the program terminates. At this >> level, the microcircuitry is relevant only to its support of the higher >> level causal structures, but the program doesn't need to be aware of nor >> consider those low-level things. It operates the same regardless. >> >> I view consciousness as like that high-level control structure. It >> operates within a causal realm where ideas and thoughts have causal >> influence and power, and can reach down to the lower level to do things >> like trigger nerve impulses. >> >> >> Here is a quote from Roger Sperry, who eloquently describes what I am >> speaking of: >> >> >> "I am going to align myself in a counterstand, along with that >> approximately 0.1 per cent mentalist minority, in support of a hypothetical >> brain model in which consciousness and mental forces generally are given >> their due representation as important features in the chain of control. >> These appear as active operational forces and dynamic properties that >> interact with and upon the physiological machinery. Any model or >> description that leaves out conscious forces, according to this view, is >> bound to be pretty sadly incomplete and unsatisfactory. The conscious mind >> in this scheme, far from being put aside and dispensed with as an >> "inconsequential byproduct," "epiphenomenon," or "inner aspect," as is the >> customary treatment these days, gets located, instead, front and center, >> directly in the midst of the causal interplay of cerebral mechanisms. >> >> Mental forces in this particular scheme are put in the driver's seat, as >> it were. They give the orders and they push and haul around the physiology >> and physicochemical processes as much as or more than the latter control >> them. This is a scheme that puts mind back in its old post, over matter, in >> a sense-not under, outside, or beside it. It's a scheme that idealizes >> ideas and ideals over physico-chemical interactions, nerve impulse >> traffic-or DNA. It's a brain model in which conscious, mental, psychic >> forces are recognized to be the crowning achievement of some five hundred >> million years or more of evolution. >> >> [...] The basic reasoning is simple: First, we contend that conscious or >> mental phenomena are dynamic, emergent, pattern (or configurational) >> properties of the living brain in action -- a point accepted by many, >> including some of the more tough-minded brain researchers. Second, the >> argument goes a critical step further, and insists that these emergent >> pattern properties in the brain have causal control potency -- just as they >> do elsewhere in the universe. And there we have the answer to the age-old >> enigma of consciousness. >> >> To put it very simply, it becomes a question largely of who pushes whom >> around in the population of causal forces that occupy the cranium. There >> exists within the human cranium a whole world of diverse causal forces; >> what is more, there are forces within forces within forces, as in no other >> cubic half-foot of universe that we know. >> >> [...] Along with their internal atomic and subnuclear parts, the brain >> molecules are obliged to submit to a course of activity in time and space >> that is determined very largely by the overall dynamic and spatial >> properties of the whole brain cell as an entity. Even the brain cells, >> however, with their long fibers and impulse conducting elements, do not >> have very much to say either about when or in what time pattern, for >> example, they are going to fire their messages. The firing orders come from >> a higher command. [...] >> >> In short, if one climbs upward through the chain of command within the >> brain, one finds at the very top those overall organizational forces and >> dynamic properties of the large patterns of cerebral excitation that >> constitute the mental or psychic phenomena. [...] >> >> Near the apex of this compound command system in the brain we find ideas. >> In the brain model proposed here, the causal potency of an idea, or an >> ideal, becomes just as real as that of a molecule, a cell, or a nerve >> impulse. Ideas cause ideas and help evolve new ideas. They interact with >> each other and with other mental forces in the same brain, in neighboring >> brains, and in distant, foreign brains. And they also interact with real >> consequence upon the external surroundings to produce in toto an explosive >> advance in evolution on this globe far beyond anything known before, >> including the emergence of the living cell." >> >> -- Roger Sperry <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Wolcott_Sperry> in >> "Mind, >> Brain, and Humanist Values >> <https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/sperry/Mind_Brain_and_Humanist_Values.html>" >> >> (1966) >> >> >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> *> As you said previously, if consciousness had no effects, there would >>>> be no reason for it to evolve in the first place.* >>>> >>> >>> What I said in my last post was "It must be because consciousness is >>> the byproduct of something else that is not useless, there are no other >>> possibilities". >>> >>> *> There is another possibility: consciousness is not useless.* >>>> >>> >>> If consciousness is not useless from Evolution's point of view then it >>> must produce "something" that natural selection can see, and if natural >>> selection can see that certain "something" then so can you or me. So the >>> Turing Test is not just a good test for intelligence it's also a good test >>> for consciousness. The only trouble is, what is that "something"? >>> Presumably whatever it is that "something" must be related to mind in some >>> way, but If it is not intelligent activity then what the hell is it"? >>> >>> John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv3kar8%3De8dFmYXiBLzY-29kYGKyk%2BnNF9xuhK3m_qipEQ%40mail.gmail.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv3kar8%3De8dFmYXiBLzY-29kYGKyk%2BnNF9xuhK3m_qipEQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUhXofreWBf0Ei9k6JxD4_Cbbprq%3DKduBYTZGAnHh8Ufpw%40mail.gmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUhXofreWBf0Ei9k6JxD4_Cbbprq%3DKduBYTZGAnHh8Ufpw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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