On Friday, October 4, 2024 at 9:13:21 PM UTC-6 Brent Meeker wrote:
On 10/4/2024 6:44 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Friday, October 4, 2024 at 2:27:00 PM UTC-6 Brent Meeker wrote: " *the only way it could be infinite in spatial extent, would be for it to be either UN-created, or if it had a beginning it must have expanded instantaneously to infinity in spatial extent." * First, this asserts a false premise. It implies that un-created=no-beginning; or in the positive beginning=>created. Which any atheist will tell you doesn't follow. Second, that beginning=>expansion from something (finite?) to infinite spatial extent. This is false. The universe could have a beginning in time at which it was infinite in spacial extent. In fact that is most common current theory. Brent * I have no idea what you're claiming, such as un-created = no-beginning is false. * *I'm not claiming it. It's what you wrote. It's just a paraphrase of what I quoted above because you convoluted expression made it hard to follow. If my paraphrase is wrong, you're invited to clarify it yourself.* The claim of "false" was yours, not mine. Your inference! AG *You must have made it up, and now claim it's Gospel. If the universe is UN-created and exists, it's Eternal, meaning No Beginning. AG* *See you reiterated the same thing, which is a false inference. The universe may have come into being without being created. Created implies some prior existing agent to do the creating.* You're hung up on the word "created". It could have been created by some God, or more much likely IMO, by Laws of Physics as yet unknown. I tend to think our bubble emerged from some preexisting substratum which could be infinite in some way, and eternal. AG * Uncreated and eternal and no beginning are three different adjutives. Uncreated is just the negation of created (see above). Eternal means lasting for all time. The universe may last infinitely long into the future, but not be past enternal. No beginning means past eternal.* You mean "adjectives". AG Our bubble began, presumably 13.8 billion years ago. This is what, in part, the CMBR implies. I am not saying our bubble is eternal. It could expand forever in time, or contract and cease to exist. I am just claiming it can't be infinite in spatial extent, since that would mean it began as infinite in spatial extent, which is an hypothesis I reject since it would have to expand to infinity instantaneously, since an expansion of space as an evolution never gets it to be infinite in spatial extent. The latter is the key point; it cannot expand to be infinite in spatial extent. There's a huge difference between getting progressively larger and achieving infinity in spatial extent. AG * If you expect anymore answers you need to write questions which don't need a paragraph of parsing. Brent * On 10/3/2024 6:34 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Thursday, October 3, 2024 at 7:02:26 PM UTC-6 Brent Meeker wrote: The universe is spatially flat and it always has been and it's infinite spatially and always has been. It had an earliest state we know about that was very dense and hot and things have expanded from that state. Brent *It would be desirable and intellectually honest if, instead of preaching the Gospel (the consensus view among cosmologists who can't think clearly), you could argue against my logic. Too much to ask? AG* On 10/3/2024 8:59 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Thursday, October 3, 2024 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-6 Cosmin Visan wrote: You can only ever observe yourself. So by unobservable you mean the minds of other consciousnesses ? I'm seeking substantive responses, so please refrain from posting on this thread. AG On Thursday 3 October 2024 at 17:21:28 UTC+3 Alan Grayson wrote: To recapitulate and clarify the argument: Firstly, by "universe" (our "bubble"), I mean the observable *and* unobservable regions defining our expanding universe. Secondly, since our universe is expanding, we could run the clock backward to any earlier time, and imagine enclosing it in a sphere, say, establishing that the observable region is finite in spatial extent. (It's actually measured to have a radius of 46 BLY.) Thirdly, concerning the *un*observable region, let's assume it's infinite in spatial extent. If so, this couldn't have occurred in stages, say by spatial expansion, since no matter how fast it might expand, or for how long a length of time, it would remain finite throughout, and could never achieve infinite status. Hence, the only way it could be infinite in spatial extent, would be for it to be either *UN*-*created*, or if it had a beginning it must have expanded *instantaneously* to infinity in spatial extent. These options are falsified in two ways; first by the CMBR, which is predicted by the Big Bang. That is, empirical evidence affirms it had a starting time. And second, as previously argued, if it is now infinite in spatial extent and had a beginning, it would have had to expand *instantaneously* to infinity. Since I consider this physically impossible -- which is my unproven and likely unprovable assumption -- by two lines of argument our universe must be finite in spatial extent. Final conclusions:, being *finite* in spatial extent, *it cannot be flat* (despite the consensus view), since that implies infinite in spatial extent (assuming it's not toroidal). And there is no need to do any measurements. Using a purely logical argument, our universe is finite in spatial extent and cannot have a flat global geometry. Its likely global geometry is approximately spherical, since it's expanding in all directions from every point in spacetime and is approximately isotropic. What could be *uncreated and infinite in space and time*, is the substratum from which our universe emerged. QED, AG -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/66ab8acd-3a49-4f69-9817-24fad7eb64afn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/66ab8acd-3a49-4f69-9817-24fad7eb64afn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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