@Alan. How do you think God gets to live all the possible lives at the same time if not being in superposition of all these lives ?
On Tuesday 8 October 2024 at 21:27:19 UTC+3 Alan Grayson wrote: > On Tuesday, October 8, 2024 at 10:30:43 AM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 10:12 AM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: > > *> It could mean the system is in one of the states of the superposition, > but we don't know which one;* > > > *Yes, it could be that the electron was in one and only one state before > the measurement was made and we just don't know which one. If that is the > case then realism is correct and, to be consistent with experimental > results, either determinism or locality or both must be wrong. You just > can't have realism and localityand determinism, you've got to abandon at > least one of those three things.* > > > *Could you explain why this is the case, if it is? TY, AG * > > > * >OR, as in the Stern-Gerlach experiment, it's not in any of the states > of the superposition before measurement!* > > > *Yes It could be that it was not in any one particular state before a > measurement in which case realism would be wrong, or it could be that it > was in all possible states before a measurement in which case realism is > also wrong. For realism to be correct it would have to be in one and only > one definite state before a measurement was made.* > > > *In SG. the electron is an undetermined state before the measurement, and > the measurement might force it into UP or DN spin, or reveal its state > before measurement. We just don't know, and more important IMO, we can't > know. All we can do is measure and acknowledge the result. This is what > Schrodinger established with his cat experiment, EXCEPT that he went > further -- in establishing we know the state before opening the box is not > alive and dead simultaneously while the box is closed. So, in general, it's > impossible to say anything about a superposition EXCEPT that we know > nothing about the state of the system before measuring it. So, there's > really no possible test for realism or its denial. In the case of MW, > you're assuming a great deal about a system's state before measurement, but > you (and the other "experts" you've referenced) have no logical basis for > that assumption. AG* > > > > *he's referring to results of Bell experiments, which ostensibly deny > realism.* > > > *The falsification of Bell's Inequality does not mean realism must be > wrong, it means that realism might be wrong, and if it's right then > determinism or locality or both must be wrong. * > > > *But, as I stated above, IMO we can't know if realism is false. I thought > Bell experiments falsified realism, but you say otherwise. Now I am not > sure if you are correct, but you might be. AG * > > > > *> Copenhagen doesn't explain the collapse of the wf as a dynamical event. > I view it as a bookkeeping device* > > > *Yes, and some people, perhaps even most people, don't even try to explain > the ambiguities in Quantum Mechanics and are content with the "Shut Up And > Calculate" philosophy** (a.k.a. the Copenhagen interpretation) ;** and > that's fine if you're an engineer and are only interested in making sure > you get the right reading on your voltmeter. Personally I'd like a little > more but there is no disputing matters of taste. * > > > *I do not embrace that philosophy. Definitely not. I think we should keep > thinking about the problem, and perhaps, some day, a solution will be > found. But since that day isn't today, it's foolish for those who assume > the solution has been found - namely, that superposition implies a system > is in all states simultaneously before the measurement -- to go off > assuming MW or whatever, based on a presently, and possibly undecidable > proposition. AG * > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8a069ea7-2bf4-4d9f-b5c4-aa4d6feb7e20n%40googlegroups.com.
