-I am defining hope here as the the expectation that things can change in a positive way.It is well understood that any treatment will influence a persons expectations.The word treatment here is broadly defined ie anything the person construes might bear on their how effective thier therapy will be eg what medical school the Dr went to,whether a friend has benefited from the rx.So if your Dr went to Harvard you MAY have more "hope" that your rx will be effective and your condition will improve(this will depend on what you think about his having gone to Harvard).Positive expectations have been shown to affect real clinical measures eg how quickly a person's temp returns to normal post sugery.When you give a person a drug you can potentially strongly influence his expections that he will obtain relief/improvement.However,it is also true that giving a person a placebo can result in a negative change.This has been called the nocebo effect.So apparently when people have negative expectations this can increase the possibility of a negative outcome.The point is peoples expectations are important.However I agree with your point that I exaggerated the likely power of a placebo.Typically the effect size of placebos has been about 35% effective(Benson points out that the effect size of placebos has been found to be significantly higher in some studies)Clearly many treatments have significantly larger effect sizes than the placebo.However,there are many treatments which are only modestly more powerful than the placebo and I think this is the case with SSRI's.However as I said before and will say again there is a subset of depressed patients that derive a very significant therapeutic benefit from SSRI's.Infact I believe it would unethical not to strongly encourage these patients to use medication.Kevin
-- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shanti2218411" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ---Sal cite me one reference from a scientific journal,medical or > > psychiatric textbook which asserts that the effect of ANY medication > > is not in part due to the placebo effect.That is the whole point of > > using a placebo control group when studying the effectiveness of a > > medical rx ie if the effectiveness of the treatment is not greater > > than the placebo than the treatment is judged to be no more effective > > than the placebo and thus not worth utilizing.Benson is proposing that > > medicine should take a more positive view of the placebo effect ie > > that it demonstrates the mind-body's capacity to heal itself. > > Re your other point,obviously depression is a state that can be > > characterized by an absence of hope.My point was that any effective > > treatment for depression involves the instillation of hope.IOW one of > > the goals of rx should be to help the person develop a sense of hope. > > Kevin > > Kevin, > > I tried to engage you on this point yesterday. Its a serious point, > though perhaps you wrote it off because in making my point, I employed > examples that might be thought humorous. Let me re-edit it and try again. > > I like Benson's point, its kind of beautiful actually. However to take > the fact the effect of ANY medication is in part due to the placebo > effect, and extrapolate that all drugs are substantally and mostly a > placebo effect is a huge illogical jump of magic, IMO. > > Perhaps you didn't mean to imply all drugs. But I dont see any factor > to limit it to SSRIs. Can you cite any limiting factors to your > massive placebo effect that limits it to SSRIs? > > To help illustrate how silly a massive placebo effect is for all > drugs, I asked the following serious, though perhaps mirthful > questions -- to make the above point: > > > Is hope what dramatically lowers the cholesterol of Lipitor consumers? > > Is hope what causes Zyrtec not to sneeze with spring pollen, and NOT > get drowsy? > > Is hope what lowers blood pressure to normal levels of beta blocker > consumers? > > Is it hope that gives vallium users that cloud 9 feeling? > > Does the Cialis taker simple get a quite hard and long lasting > erection from the "hope" given by cialas ads? > > Does the new found vigor that now lasts 36 hours, compared to the 8 > hours when he took viagra, due to the extra hope instilled by ads or > discussions with his doctor? > > Why don't ED subjects simply view the Cialas and viagra ads in order > to get sustained ability for hard prolonged erections? > > Are the reported physiologic side effects of SSRIs, particularly > sexual, caused by a placebo hope effect? That is do subjects > experience a placebo effect for a generally negative side effect? > > When a woman takes birh control pills, is it just the hope factor that > keeps her from conceiving? > > Do medical marijuana users now just need to have hope? And their pain > subsides as well with "swag" as well as sticky buds -- because they > both instill hope? > > If its primarily hope inducing placebo effects that induce results for > depression, or any condition, the effects should be similar across all > therapies. And for Depression, the response should be even higher for > talk therapy since it is applied to all patients and has the human > touch / caring factor bringing in stronger Hawthorne type effects than > the hope instill by a pill (a 50% chance of a sugar pill at that) But > this is not the case. The evidence I have seen indicate strongly that > SSRIs are far more effective than talk therapy > alone. > > Again, I am not questioning that placebo effects occur in most drugs. > I question your supposition that placebo effects can explain a > majority of the effects in a majority of SSRI users --- and presumably > all other drugs, such as Lipitor, beta blocker, cialis, viagra, > vallium, anti-histimine and birth control users. > > Can you explain more clearly your apparent huge leap from > the fact that the effect of ANY medication is in part due to the > placebo effect to conclude that the effects of all drugs are > substantaly and mostly a placebo effect? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
