Wow, what a reply. Thanks for that. I may, or may not have a few comments as I go through again. On second thought, I think I'll go with my initial reaction. My nature is to agree with most everything you say. Cooperation, appreciation goes a long way in cementing relations between countries. Sure seems a lot easier to do this when you have more in common as we did/do with Europe after WW2. I am not a student of history, but it seems that Muslims, for the most part, have their own set of values that differ pretty much from the rest of the world. And of course, the miliary seems to be coming around to your way of thinking, but forging relationships with the people, instead pretty much ignoring them. But it is a slow process to be sure. I guess I'll stop there. But thanks for the thoughtful response.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain <no_re...@...> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "lurkernomore20002000" steve.sundur@ wrote: > > > > > > In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain <no_reply@> wrote: > > In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "lurkernomore20002000" steve.sundur@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Please tell me how you propose to deal with Islamist extremists > > whose objective is to kill Americans here, there, anywhere. > > > > > > > > > Well, to start, by acknowledging the huge debt of the US, and the > > people of Eastern Europe, an the world have for the 12 year struggle > > where Afghani Islamic Jihadist Freedom Fighters broke the back and bank > > of the Soviet Union and were arguably the key factor in ending the Cold > > War. > > > I guess this ending the cold war is kind of like the 1965 Ford > > Mustang. As lee Iocca said, and I paraphrase, "You've got so many > > people taking credit for being the father of this thing, I'd hate to be > > the mother" > > As in anything, there are many factors. What was the decisive factor? If not for Afghanastan as their vietnam would the soviets have gone bankrupt? Perhaps -- certainly not as soon. And certainly not if they took the Saudi oil fields 200 miles away from the Afghani border. And was it coincidence that only 6-8 months after an illiterate group of Afganhi jihadists many who had never seen a flush toilet, and whos primary transportation were mules, beat down the Soviet superpower -- that Poland kicked out the Soviets, Eastern Europe fell and the Berlin wall was razed? I would think that was hugely inspirational to freedom, fighters world-wide. > > >>By stopping raw Soviet imperialism in Afganistan they > > stopped a highly probable capture of most middle eastern oil fields and > > a firm military hold all the way to the Indian Ocean. We would have a > > very different world today if that occurred. > > > Sounds a little assumptive > > to me. Kind of like the domino theory sort of thing. Is that what you > > are saying? > > No not dominoes. A domino theory, which I don't buy, implies the Soviet puppet gov't in Afghanastan had nothing to do with a massive invasion by the Soviet army and their sophisticated weapons systems. > > What do you think the Soviets would have done if they owned Afgahanastan with the Saudi oil fields 200 miles away? > > > > > > > However, instead of thanks, the US said "good-by and fuck you" > > >what > > should we have done, stuck around? Colonized it? > > Perhaps for those steeped deep in American values, that may have been their first thought. My first thought is usually against imperialists. > > > > I thought the whole > > idea was to say goodbye. > > After they defeated the long-standing imperialists at the core of the cold war, which the US spent trillions on trying to thwart and defeat for 45 years, a rather huge favor to the US and world -- the US left them with s devastated country and economy -- and several billion dollars of sophisticated arms and training. Did you think that would have a happy ending? > > > -- and then wonders why they don't love the > > US. So first, a little perspective and deserved huge respect would go a > > long way in dealing with the true Afghanhi heroes, many whom when fucked > > over did evolve into anti-americanism. > > >True appreciation of these > > Afghani heroes would be a good first step kind of like a cake cutting > > ceromony, and ringing the bell of invincibility for Afganistan? > > Is that what you have have done for the Afghani's who defeated the Soviets and brought down their empire -- a feat the west could not do in 45 years and trillions of dollars of trying? > > I would have had grander plans. If the US spent billions on the Marshal Plan so that a bunch of warring imperialist thug powers could pick up the pieces after having clobbered each other and taken the world to the brink, then I would think at least that if not far more should have been the world's appreciation for an underdeveloped country, who sacrificed all that they had to defeat the Soviets -- the dominant imperialist power of the second half of the 20th century. We left them with a devastated country and left $20 on the nightstand. > > >That much of the globe thinks americans are assholes with no clue is not such a mystery. They may have a point. > > >and go a > > long way in ending hostilities with many islamic jihadists Their primary > > fight is with long standing American global bombastic and abusive > > policies and American arrogance and exceptionalism. > > > please site some > > examples of what we did to antagonize the Afgan people > > More examples? > > > > > > > British, Spanish, Soviet, French, German, Japanese and American > > imperialism have screwed so many millions of people over for centuries > > (in some cases). Is it a wonder some react to violence with violence? > > > okay, so that is the crux of your argument. This is payback? Karmic > > payback? > > Karma is a big oggie boogie word -- which many don't recognize or understand. Revenge, retribution, righting of perceived insults and slights are more understandable I think. > > > I will be honest. This makes about as much sense as anything > > else I've heard. > > > But does just plain hatred, and even jealousy play > > any role. > > Afghani's as well as many in the Islamic world are proud people. And serious about revenge when insulted, or worse, screwed over. That is not inherent hatred of the west. American's active in the Soviet Afgani' war were repeated hailed and treated as national heroes. It was the beginning and could have been a great love affair -- well at least great friendship between America, the West and Afghanistan. > > In addition, I had friends who traveled extensively in Afghanastan in the 70's -- not much anti-americanism then they said -- on personal level. > > > Does the fact that their holy book prescribes killing any non > > believers play a role? > > Do the many atrocities prescribed in the Christian and Hebrew bibles make all westerners and Israelis bloodthirsty? > > > Are you saying that we deserve this" That > > England deserves subway bombings, that France and Copenhagen deserve > > having citizens murdered who poke fun at other people's religious > > beliefs? > > After the pot starts boiling its sort of hard to sort out exact one to one correspondence of tit for tat. I am saying the US and world could have not only kept the pot from boiling into a mess in Afghanistan, they could have treated the Afghani jihadists as war heroes of the highest degree, expressed a huge wave of gratitude in terms of building schools and infrastructure. And if they did, the US and western Europe would be respected in many parts of the Islamic world today instead of hated. The roots of the hatred goes back centuries. A strong antidote composed of true respect and friendship was lost when the Soviets were defeated and we just mostly ignored the amazing warriors who did it. > > > > If you look at the world with a five year perspective one is bound to > > > be confused. > > > Has it ever been otherwise > > There is no time like the present to begin. >
