A summary of what was left in Afghanistan after the Islamic Jihadists defeated the Soviets, and arguably ended the Cold War and prevented Soviet takeover of Saudi oil fields and the establishment of long imperialist goals of extending their empire to the Indian Ocean.
>From Wiki on the aftermath of the Afghan Soviet war: Estimates of the Afghan deaths vary from 100,000[78] to 1 million.[79] 5 million Afghans fled to Pakistan and Iran, 1/3 of the prewar population of the country. Another 2 million Afghans were displaced within the country. In the 1980s, half of all refugees in the world were Afghan.[80] Along with fatalities were 1.2 million Afghans disabled (mujahideen, government soldiers and noncombatants) and 3 million maimed or wounded (primarily noncombatants).[81] Irrigation systems, crucial to agriculture in Afghanistan's arid climate, were destroyed by aerial bombing and strafing by Soviet or government forces. In the worst year of the war, 1985, well over half of all the farmers who remained in Afghanistan had their fields bombed, and over one quarter had their irrigation systems destroyed and their livestock shot by Soviet or government troops, according to a survey conducted by Swedish relief experts [80] The population of Afghanistan's second largest city, Kandahar, was reduced from 200,000 before the war to no more than 25,000 inhabitants, following a months-long campaign of carpet bombing and bulldozing by the Soviets and Afghan communist soldiers in 1987.[82] Land mines had killed 25,000 Afghans during the war and another 10-15 million land mines, most planted by Soviet and government forces, were left scattered throughout the countryside.[83] A great deal of damage was done to the civilian children population by land mines. A 2005 report estimated 3-4% of the Afghan population were disabled due to Soviet and government land mines. In the city of Quetta, a survey of refugee women and children taken shortly after the Soviet withdrawal found over 80% of the children refugees unregistered and child mortality at 31%. Of children who survived, 67% were severely malnourished, with malnutrition increasing with age.[84] Critics of Soviet and Afghan government forces describe their effect on Afghan culture as working in three stages: first, the center of customary Afghan culture, Islam, was pushed aside; second, Soviet patterns of life, especially amongst the young, were imported; third, shared Afghan cultural characteristics were destroyed by the emphasis on so-called nationalities, with the outcome that the country was split into different ethnic groups, with no language, religion, or culture in common.[85] The Geneva Accords of 1988, which ultimately led to the withdrawal of the Soviet forces in early 1989, left the Afghan government in ruins. The accords had failed to address adequately the issue of the post-occupation period and the future governance of Afghanistan. The assumption among most Western diplomats was that the Soviet-backed government in Kabul would soon collapse; however, this was not to happen for another three years. During this time the Interim Islamic Government of Afghanistan (IIGA) was established in exile. The exclusion of key groups such as refugees and Shias, combined with major disagreements between the different mujaheddin factions, meant that the IIGA never succeeded in acting as a functional government.[86] Before the war, Afghanistan was already one of the world's poorest nations. The prolonged conflict left Afghanistan ranked 170 out of 174 in the UNDP's Human Development Index, making Afghanistan one of the least developed countries in the world.[87] Once the Soviets withdrew, US interest in Afghanistan ceased. The US decided not to help with reconstruction of the country and instead they handed over the interests of the country to US allies, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Pakistan quickly took advantage of this opportunity and forged relations with warlords and later the Taliban, to secure trade interests and routes. From wiping out the country's trees through logging practices, which has destroyed all but 2% of forest cover country-wide, to substantial uprooting of wild pistachio trees for the exportation of their roots for therapeutic uses, to opium agriculture, the past ten years have caused much ecological and agrarian destruction.[88] Captain Tarlan Eyvazov, a soldier in the Soviet forces during the war, stated that the Afghan children's future is destined for war. Eyvazov said, "Children born in Afghanistan at the start of the war... have been brought up in war conditions, this is their way of life." Eyvazov's theory was later strengthened when the Taliban movement developed and formed from orphans or refugee children who were forced by the Soviets to flee their homes and relocate their lives in Pakistan. The swift rise to power, from the young Taliban in 1994, was the result of the disorder and civil war that had warlords running wild because of the complete breakdown of law and order in Afghanistan after the departure of the Soviets.[89] --- In [email protected], tartbrain <no_re...@...> wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "lurkernomore20002000" <steve.sundur@> > wrote: > > > > > > In [email protected], tartbrain <no_reply@> wrote: > > In [email protected], "lurkernomore20002000" steve.sundur@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Please tell me how you propose to deal with Islamist extremists > > whose objective is to kill Americans here, there, anywhere. > > > > > > > > > Well, to start, by acknowledging the huge debt of the US, and the > > people of Eastern Europe, an the world have for the 12 year struggle > > where Afghani Islamic Jihadist Freedom Fighters broke the back and bank > > of the Soviet Union and were arguably the key factor in ending the Cold > > War. > > > I guess this ending the cold war is kind of like the 1965 Ford > > Mustang. As lee Iocca said, and I paraphrase, "You've got so many > > people taking credit for being the father of this thing, I'd hate to be > > the mother" > > As in anything, there are many factors. What was the decisive factor? If not > for Afghanastan as their vietnam would the soviets have gone bankrupt? > Perhaps -- certainly not as soon. And certainly not if they took the Saudi > oil fields 200 miles away from the Afghani border. And was it coincidence > that only 6-8 months after an illiterate group of Afganhi jihadists many who > had never seen a flush toilet, and whos primary transportation were mules, > beat down the Soviet superpower -- that Poland kicked out the Soviets, > Eastern Europe fell and the Berlin wall was razed? I would think that was > hugely inspirational to freedom, fighters world-wide. > > >>By stopping raw Soviet imperialism in Afganistan they > > stopped a highly probable capture of most middle eastern oil fields and > > a firm military hold all the way to the Indian Ocean. We would have a > > very different world today if that occurred. > > > Sounds a little assumptive > > to me. Kind of like the domino theory sort of thing. Is that what you > > are saying? > > No not dominoes. A domino theory, which I don't buy, implies the Soviet > puppet gov't in Afghanastan had nothing to do with a massive invasion by the > Soviet army and their sophisticated weapons systems. > > What do you think the Soviets would have done if they owned Afgahanastan with > the Saudi oil fields 200 miles away? > > > > > > > However, instead of thanks, the US said "good-by and fuck you" > > >what > > should we have done, stuck around? Colonized it? > > Perhaps for those steeped deep in American values, that may have been their > first thought. My first thought is usually against imperialists. > > > > I thought the whole > > idea was to say goodbye. > > After they defeated the long-standing imperialists at the core of the cold > war, which the US spent trillions on trying to thwart and defeat for 45 > years, a rather huge favor to the US and world -- the US left them with s > devastated country and economy -- and several billion dollars of > sophisticated arms and training. Did you think that would have a happy ending? > > > -- and then wonders why they don't love the > > US. So first, a little perspective and deserved huge respect would go a > > long way in dealing with the true Afghanhi heroes, many whom when fucked > > over did evolve into anti-americanism. > > >True appreciation of these > > Afghani heroes would be a good first step kind of like a cake cutting > > ceromony, and ringing the bell of invincibility for Afganistan? > > Is that what you have have done for the Afghani's who defeated the Soviets > and brought down their empire -- a feat the west could not do in 45 years and > trillions of dollars of trying? > > I would have had grander plans. If the US spent billions on the Marshal Plan > so that a bunch of warring imperialist thug powers could pick up the pieces > after having clobbered each other and taken the world to the brink, then I > would think at least that if not far more should have been the world's > appreciation for an underdeveloped country, who sacrificed all that they had > to defeat the Soviets -- the dominant imperialist power of the second half of > the 20th century. We left them with a devastated country and left $20 on the > nightstand. > > >That much of the globe thinks americans are assholes with no clue is not > >such a mystery. They may have a point. > > >and go a > > long way in ending hostilities with many islamic jihadists Their primary > > fight is with long standing American global bombastic and abusive > > policies and American arrogance and exceptionalism. > > > please site some > > examples of what we did to antagonize the Afgan people > > More examples? > > > > > > > British, Spanish, Soviet, French, German, Japanese and American > > imperialism have screwed so many millions of people over for centuries > > (in some cases). Is it a wonder some react to violence with violence? > > > okay, so that is the crux of your argument. This is payback? Karmic > > payback? > > Karma is a big oggie boogie word -- which many don't recognize or understand. > Revenge, retribution, righting of perceived insults and slights are more > understandable I think. > > > I will be honest. This makes about as much sense as anything > > else I've heard. > > > But does just plain hatred, and even jealousy play > > any role. > > Afghani's as well as many in the Islamic world are proud people. And serious > about revenge when insulted, or worse, screwed over. That is not inherent > hatred of the west. American's active in the Soviet Afgani' war were repeated > hailed and treated as national heroes. It was the beginning and could have > been a great love affair -- well at least great friendship between America, > the West and Afghanistan. > > In addition, I had friends who traveled extensively in Afghanastan in the > 70's -- not much anti-americanism then they said -- on personal level. > > > Does the fact that their holy book prescribes killing any non > > believers play a role? > > Do the many atrocities prescribed in the Christian and Hebrew bibles make all > westerners and Israelis bloodthirsty? > > > Are you saying that we deserve this" That > > England deserves subway bombings, that France and Copenhagen deserve > > having citizens murdered who poke fun at other people's religious > > beliefs? > > After the pot starts boiling its sort of hard to sort out exact one to one > correspondence of tit for tat. I am saying the US and world could have not > only kept the pot from boiling into a mess in Afghanistan, they could have > treated the Afghani jihadists as war heroes of the highest degree, expressed > a huge wave of gratitude in terms of building schools and infrastructure. And > if they did, the US and western Europe would be respected in many parts of > the Islamic world today instead of hated. The roots of the hatred goes back > centuries. A strong antidote composed of true respect and friendship was lost > when the Soviets were defeated and we just mostly ignored the amazing > warriors who did it. > > > > If you look at the world with a five year perspective one is bound to > > > be confused. > > > Has it ever been otherwise > > There is no time like the present to begin. >
