--- In [email protected], "Buck" <dhamiltony...@...> wrote: > > Yep this all reads well like some lot of FFL pharisaical sophistry.
You don't understand the meaning of the terms you are using. You have successfully conveyed a vaguely pejorative intention and used some Jesusy sounding words. I'm surprised you didn't drop in a thus or thou to complete the illusion that you were speaking to us from an old book. < A lot of mental gymnastic about other people's experience.> And intellectual analysis and discussion is a bad thing how? The discussion of shakti and darsho was about our own experiences. When it comes to evaluating claims, anecdotal evidence of other people's experiences is of little value. I refer you to the book The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives to better understand how difficult it is for our minds to go beyond poorly supported beliefs and see the truth of claims. When I see a presentation based on anecdotal evidence I know science has left the building and marketing bamboozlement is in charge. < Should have been there but you weren't. You missed it, again.> An odd egocentric put-down. We have all had experiences the other lacks. But I would never try to say that you "should" have had experiences I have had. > > And also who is saying there is no science? That would be me. I see no evidence of applying the scientific method to support the claims. < This Trivedi bursting on the scene is about that. Science. He's come like Christ and is saying hook me up and don't hide the results.> If you can't see the irony of that cluster of statements there is little I can say. I could never improve on the perfection of what you wrote to make my point. < 'Show everyone the science'. He's been trying for that and That is what they did up on campus here last week. That science of spiritual phenomena is what Trivedi is about doing.> OK I went to his site again and clicked on the button that said "Scientific Research" in big letters. Kept clicking though the unsupported claims until I got to the source "studies." Even with a one course background in testing methodologies I could see that there was not enough information provided to evaluate the claims and the claimed use of controls was bogus and deceptive. These Indian testers are either ignorant of scientific protocol or in on a scam. But perhaps this is just the beginning and we will see good research done some time in the future. But the enthusiastic presentation of flawed bogus "research" as a marketing gimmick leads me to doubt this is probable. If he really understood or cared about the scientific method he would not be using a 3 out of 4 dentists surveyed approach to marketing sciency sounding crap. < John Douglas too is getting looked at.> Given his misuse of the term "quantum" I have seen no evidence of his having a clue about the scientific method or a sincere desire to use it to sort out claims with good evidence from those that have little. He is a faith healer. You have faith so I hope you get your money's worth. < Enjoy the show,> I have, these guys are a riot. I am always entertained by flimflammery and college educated people in the first world falling for the equivalent of a tribal witch doctor. The common bond between them is the causal agent of "magic." < it's the real deal by experience and science.> Again I can't improve on your phrasing. > > JGD, Stands for "Just Got Deluded" I assume. > -Buck Uh...Ok Doug whatever you say. > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@> > wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > I think you deepened the discussion with the consideration of how people's > > beliefs can have an effect on their health. And if the cost of belief is a > > lump of cash in this society rather than some deferential relationship with > > a village elder shaman priest then so be it. I was responding more to > > Douglas's site where he misuses terms like "quantum level" to make it sound > > sciencey like Chopra. And perhaps he believes his own rap so it is > > innocent on both sides. I believe there is a lack of ethics in giving > > false hopes on health matters despite the placebo effect. Because we also > > know that it is not permanent, it fades. Whatever we have to learn about > > our amazing mind body relationship is not aided by people claiming surety > > without good evidence. > > > > I'm not sure how anyone could distinguish the cause and effect of an energy > > like "shakti." How anyone could say that the source outside yourself was > > known. I am more inclined to believe that it is self generated. My own > > "experience" of what I thought at the time was Maharishi's "darshon" is > > probably my best reference. After a while it kind of went away in India > > after seeing him day after day. But with suggestibility heightened by long > > meditations we were all ripe for generating all sorts of experiences. > > > > When I was dropping out of TM I had a brief phase of trying stuff like > > Reiki healing. I had all sorts of experiences with it being a good little > > suggestible meditator. Everything I tried "worked" in the sense that I > > felt all sorts of stuff much to the delight of any teacher of whatever I > > came across. But is was all subjective, I never healed any conditions with > > it, not even heartburn! Like Maharishi said, once the field is prepared any > > seed will grow. > > > > What I see lacking in personal healer's presentations is a genuinely honest > > attempt to test their claims. Their utter contempt for skepticism and the > > right for customers to see something that would reasonable support their > > claims makes them seem dishonest to me. We all know how to test such > > specific claims about the physical world. But somehow they have convinced > > people that those rules of evidence do not apply to them. Instead we get > > anecdotes from people who had spaces filled inside their own imagination. > > > > Perhaps it is an entertainment expense for people. They get their ticket > > and they get their ride. And everybody is happy till the next MRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Buck" <dhamiltony2k5@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Seems both Trivedi and John Douglas are approved as healer > > > > > teachers to go to. Which one is more cost effective? > > > > > > > > I would go with the equally reliable process of flushing single > > > > dollar bills down the toilet whispering the phrase "heal me oh > > > > great pooba" with each flush. You should feel the same relief > > > > you would get from a magical healing session plus it will help > > > > make sure your septic system is flowing properly. Since you are > > > > just flushing single dollars you will come out ahead of any lump > > > > sum process of being played as a mark by a "healer." > > > > > > I am glad you weighed in on this, Curtis. I was tempted > > > to write a similar reply to Buck yesterday but didn't > > > have time. > > > > > > I see two factors at play here. The first is *hope*, > > > the value of which can never be discounted. Call it a > > > "miracle," call it the placebo effect, having a strong > > > belief in a "cure" can often affect one. Look into the > > > recent studies that have shown that the placebo effect > > > seems to be growing *stronger*, to the point that it > > > is now difficult to perform accurate medical studies > > > because the percentage of people gaining relief in the > > > control group -- taking only placebos -- is often as > > > high as the percentage of people gaining relief from > > > the actual medicine. It appears that the main factor > > > is the fact that they are taking a pill, period. This > > > seems sufficient to trigger whatever mechanism that > > > provides relief. The researchers have even found that > > > the *color* of the placebo or real pill can affect > > > results. > > > > > > Given this, I see no reason to disbelieve those who > > > claim that they have experienced "relief" from what > > > ails them as a result of a "blessing" from Trivedi > > > or other "healers." If a placebo can trigger "relief," > > > then so can belief in a "healer." Thus I would never > > > deny their *right* to either pay Trivedi his "fees" > > > or flush dollar bills down the toilet. > > > > > > That said, the other factor I see at play here is the > > > shakti/flash component. From what has been said here, > > > it appears that this Trivedi fellow can generate > > > enough of it so that people in the audience (admit- > > > tedly already pre-programmed to expect something) > > > *feel* something as the result of sitting with him. > > > > > > I have no problem with this. Been there, done that. > > > Shakti -- whatever it is -- can be a palpable > > > experience. The problem, as I see it, is *associating* > > > that palpable experience of shakti with anything. > > > > > > *Anything*. IMO, having experienced powerful shakti > > > from a number of people, shakti is associated with > > > only one thing -- shakti. The ability to generate it > > > has *nothing* to do with the person's state of > > > consciousness, or with his/her ability to "heal." > > > That is an association that the perceiver makes in > > > his or her own mind, or that is claimed by the person > > > generating the shakti. > > > > > > You sit in a room with someone who can generate some > > > shakti and you feel something. Big whoop. I have done > > > this hundreds of times and personally I don't see it > > > as *ever* having had a lasting effect. It's like a > > > temporary drug rush, a hit on the crack pipe of shakti. > > > It's fun at the time, but if the perception is gone > > > the next day or within a week, *what effect did it > > > really have on you*? > > > > > > IMO, a *LOT* of people in the New Age community are > > > suckers for a cheap hit of shakti. They feel something > > > and *project stuff onto it*. IMO, all that happened > > > was the subjective experience of some very common > > > energy we have labeled "shakti." > > > > > > My suspicion is that the things these seekers project > > > onto a cheap experience of shakti is pure projection. > > > Just because you feel a rush does not mean that the > > > rush is either beneficial or is "healing" you. It is > > > *just* as logical to assume that any "healing" you > > > experience after a cheap hit of shakti is due to the > > > placebo effect as it is to consider it the "result" > > > of a toke on the shakti crack pipe. > > > > > > Just my opinion... > > > > > >
