--- In [email protected], "Buck" <dhamiltony...@...> wrote:
>
> Yep this all reads well like some lot of FFL pharisaical sophistry. A
lot of mental gymnastic about other people's experience. Should have
been there but you weren't. You missed it, again.
> ,
> And also who is saying there is no science? This Trivedi bursting on
the scene is about that. Science. He's come like Christ and is saying
hook me up and don't hide the results. 'Show everyone the science'. He's
been trying for that and That is what they did up on campus here last
week. And the results were .......trumpeted like a movie ad, "See Mount
Everest on Trivedi's EEG!", "Miracle on Burlington Street" All they
need to do is bring in David OJ to "fully analyze" and "verify" the
results. Likely they will come in a step or two less than super
radiance measurements, but still respectable. David OJ was "gifted" at
finding those correlations which would otherwise escape a normal
researcher. His work in analyzing the DC project research I felt, was
especially creative. , at science of spiritual phenomena is what
Trivedi is about doing. John Douglas too is getting looked at. Enjoy the
show, it's the real deal by experience and science.
>
> JGD,
> -Buck
>
> --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues"
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
> >
> > --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > I think you deepened the discussion with the consideration of how
people's beliefs can have an effect on their health. And if the cost of
belief is a lump of cash in this society rather than some deferential
relationship with a village elder shaman priest then so be it. I was
responding more to Douglas's site where he misuses terms like "quantum
level" to make it sound sciencey like Chopra. And perhaps he believes
his own rap so it is innocent on both sides. I believe there is a lack
of ethics in giving false hopes on health matters despite the placebo
effect. Because we also know that it is not permanent, it fades.
Whatever we have to learn about our amazing mind body relationship is
not aided by people claiming surety without good evidence.
> >
> > I'm not sure how anyone could distinguish the cause and effect of an
energy like "shakti." How anyone could say that the source outside
yourself was known. I am more inclined to believe that it is self
generated. My own "experience" of what I thought at the time was
Maharishi's "darshon" is probably my best reference. After a while it
kind of went away in India after seeing him day after day. But with
suggestibility heightened by long meditations we were all ripe for
generating all sorts of experiences.
> >
> > When I was dropping out of TM I had a brief phase of trying stuff
like Reiki healing. I had all sorts of experiences with it being a good
little suggestible meditator. Everything I tried "worked" in the sense
that I felt all sorts of stuff much to the delight of any teacher of
whatever I came across. But is was all subjective, I never healed any
conditions with it, not even heartburn! Like Maharishi said, once the
field is prepared any seed will grow.
> >
> > What I see lacking in personal healer's presentations is a genuinely
honest attempt to test their claims. Their utter contempt for skepticism
and the right for customers to see something that would reasonable
support their claims makes them seem dishonest to me. We all know how to
test such specific claims about the physical world. But somehow they
have convinced people that those rules of evidence do not apply to them.
Instead we get anecdotes from people who had spaces filled inside their
own imagination.
> >
> > Perhaps it is an entertainment expense for people. They get their
ticket and they get their ride. And everybody is happy till the next
MRI.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues"
<curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], "Buck" <dhamiltony2k5@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Seems both Trivedi and John Douglas are approved as healer
> > > > > teachers to go to. Which one is more cost effective?
> > > >
> > > > I would go with the equally reliable process of flushing single
> > > > dollar bills down the toilet whispering the phrase "heal me oh
> > > > great pooba" with each flush. You should feel the same relief
> > > > you would get from a magical healing session plus it will help
> > > > make sure your septic system is flowing properly. Since you are
> > > > just flushing single dollars you will come out ahead of any lump
> > > > sum process of being played as a mark by a "healer."
> > >
> > > I am glad you weighed in on this, Curtis. I was tempted
> > > to write a similar reply to Buck yesterday but didn't
> > > have time.
> > >
> > > I see two factors at play here. The first is *hope*,
> > > the value of which can never be discounted. Call it a
> > > "miracle," call it the placebo effect, having a strong
> > > belief in a "cure" can often affect one. Look into the
> > > recent studies that have shown that the placebo effect
> > > seems to be growing *stronger*, to the point that it
> > > is now difficult to perform accurate medical studies
> > > because the percentage of people gaining relief in the
> > > control group -- taking only placebos -- is often as
> > > high as the percentage of people gaining relief from
> > > the actual medicine. It appears that the main factor
> > > is the fact that they are taking a pill, period. This
> > > seems sufficient to trigger whatever mechanism that
> > > provides relief. The researchers have even found that
> > > the *color* of the placebo or real pill can affect
> > > results.
> > >
> > > Given this, I see no reason to disbelieve those who
> > > claim that they have experienced "relief" from what
> > > ails them as a result of a "blessing" from Trivedi
> > > or other "healers." If a placebo can trigger "relief,"
> > > then so can belief in a "healer." Thus I would never
> > > deny their *right* to either pay Trivedi his "fees"
> > > or flush dollar bills down the toilet.
> > >
> > > That said, the other factor I see at play here is the
> > > shakti/flash component. From what has been said here,
> > > it appears that this Trivedi fellow can generate
> > > enough of it so that people in the audience (admit-
> > > tedly already pre-programmed to expect something)
> > > *feel* something as the result of sitting with him.
> > >
> > > I have no problem with this. Been there, done that.
> > > Shakti -- whatever it is -- can be a palpable
> > > experience. The problem, as I see it, is *associating*
> > > that palpable experience of shakti with anything.
> > >
> > > *Anything*. IMO, having experienced powerful shakti
> > > from a number of people, shakti is associated with
> > > only one thing -- shakti. The ability to generate it
> > > has *nothing* to do with the person's state of
> > > consciousness, or with his/her ability to "heal."
> > > That is an association that the perceiver makes in
> > > his or her own mind, or that is claimed by the person
> > > generating the shakti.
> > >
> > > You sit in a room with someone who can generate some
> > > shakti and you feel something. Big whoop. I have done
> > > this hundreds of times and personally I don't see it
> > > as *ever* having had a lasting effect. It's like a
> > > temporary drug rush, a hit on the crack pipe of shakti.
> > > It's fun at the time, but if the perception is gone
> > > the next day or within a week, *what effect did it
> > > really have on you*?
> > >
> > > IMO, a *LOT* of people in the New Age community are
> > > suckers for a cheap hit of shakti. They feel something
> > > and *project stuff onto it*. IMO, all that happened
> > > was the subjective experience of some very common
> > > energy we have labeled "shakti."
> > >
> > > My suspicion is that the things these seekers project
> > > onto a cheap experience of shakti is pure projection.
> > > Just because you feel a rush does not mean that the
> > > rush is either beneficial or is "healing" you. It is
> > > *just* as logical to assume that any "healing" you
> > > experience after a cheap hit of shakti is due to the
> > > placebo effect as it is to consider it the "result"
> > > of a toke on the shakti crack pipe.
> > >
> > > Just my opinion...
> > >
> >
>
