--- In [email protected], tartbrain <no_re...@...> wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@> > wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], tartbrain <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > First thanks for reading anything I write here! The good will behind your > > suggestion is much appreciated. > > > > I think my brand of skepticism is not appropriate for personal challenges > > to an individual. People whose identities include the cluster of beliefs > > that they are enlightened are doing it for deep psychological reasons that > > should not be casually challenged. > > I was not thinking of challenging. But rather asking questions. Some of your > posts get into high energy sarcasm -- which is funny and piercing.
If it was a person pitching shit to sell I would love to! But part of Ricks' power and charm is the non judgmental space he creates. I think that is important to his success formula for the series as it has been on FFL. I am appreciative of people who enjoy my writing here but also am aware of the buzz kill effect my POV has for believers. But thanks for telling me I make you laugh that is the highest compliment. I am a fan of your writing here too so the feeling is mutual. > > I was thinking of a commentary, a later overlay -- like a directors comments > track on a DVD, not necessarily a convo with the people, but rather asking > things like if one were to try to validate this experience, what would be > necessary, how would one do it. And distinguishing between personal > interpretation based on biases and limited life experience (all of us fit in > that category). Possibly giving hypothetical alternative to the > interpretation. And even going after the validity of the experience itself -- > wish fulfillment and deservingness -- and stretching ones perceptions to fit > the desired goal. And how hard it must be to live in a community of superhero > spiritual attainees -- rambling on and on and on about their experience. "Me > too" -- the desire for inclusiveness and social esteem is a powerful force > that can shape our perception, not to mention interpretation of that maligned > or misaligned perception. > > And of course some experiences may be dazzling real, and the interpretation > of them spot on. I haven't seen anyone make that case convincingly yet but I have to see some more shows. The idea of Rick's project is brilliant by either POV, let's hear the claims. > > > > > It would give me no joy and would go against my own personal values to > > personally challenge people's beliefs who are not hurting anyone and just > > want to feel special by interpreting their internal experience this way. > > > > I do not discount that you can shift the way you see the world and yourself > > through lots of meditation. I did it too. I am challenging the underlying > > interpretation of what it means. But on a personal basis this often is > > interpreted as a personal putdown or identity challenge. I am trying to > > maintain good intellectual boundaries between what I choose to believe and > > what others choose. > > > > This does not include the people who take money for their "enlightenedness" > > in some form. > > Taking away peoples attention -- and diminishing a persons or group's > grounding in reality -- may actually be a worse thing than taking money. This is a profound insight. I don't know how I think of it. Of course I agree personally and philosophically, but I'm not sure some of these people are going to have a better go at "realty" without this buffer of specialness. I'm just sure of one thing, my lack of ability to judge who to challenge based on psychological stability. This may be better left to mental health experts to distinguish someone who just believes somethings I don't, and someone who is unhinged by their internal experiences. I do believe that some people with the best experiences are mentally ill and being co-dependently supported by a community of people who are not helping them by buying in. But obviously many are not ill and I can't really tell the difference! > > > Those people deserve the same push back of reason we would apply to any > > predator con in society. I consider Trivedi one of those because his misuse > > of science is fraudulent. > > > > I only saw the first Gas Pump episode and they were a sweet couple who > > believe they have achieved a valued subjective state of mind. All I could > > say to them is "good on ya mate." > > Thats the only one I saw too. Similar reaction. But I could see some gentle > and kind probing being useful, to them, or at least viewers. Its one thing to > stand up and say "Here is what (I interpret as) my experience is. Its another > thing for viewers to get sucked into the drive for social inclusiveness and > quest for personal meaning and significance of ones life -- and swallowing > the whole rap without questioning. Agreed. I think so more clarification of exactly what IS being claimed would be useful. Sometimes my dark skeptical heart is satisfied if I can just get beyond the innuendo of claims and get someone to just say what they believe outright. Chopra is a master of the implied claim without having to take the skeptical heat of how it would sound if he stated the claim outright. Think how convinced some of us were there Maharishi really had magical powers, all through innuendo. > > > > > But your kind suggestion does lead me to consider how I might express my > > shift to non enlightenedness as the kind of Superman Comix opposite world > > revelation. One of the things I try to express in personal conversations > > with religious people is that I consider my insight into life as hard > > earned and as precious as they do their own spiritual insights. I am not > > living in a world full of negativity against beliefs but in the positive > > state of my own personally valued insight into my life and the world. It > > is as liberating to me to have dispensed with the God belief, among others, > > as it is for people who have chosen to embrace them. What I want from > > believers is the same respect for my non-belief as they give other > > believers who choose different Gods instead of trying to diminish my > > insight as a personality defect which is the most common ad hominem move. > > Spiritual people are usually not too kind to non spiritual people in > > personal discussions and the reverse is often true. > > > > There is a personal joy in discovering new ways that I am often full of > > shit in my beliefs and reasoning. > > Which can happen (eating ones own shit) by the trap of current knowledge. 100 > years from now people will laugh at most of our "pre-science" beliefs. > Imagine a highly trained and esteemed doctor in 1800 reacting to a > space-time travelers insistance that he he should wash his hands before > surgery. "What balder dash! Invisible little creatures causing disease and > infection?!!! What utter rubbish! Who are these invisible beings -- where do > they come from, how do you know they exist if we can't see them. Lock this > lunny up" > > > > >I get a real pleasure in discovering new ways that my mind is an imperfect > >instrument in discovering truth. I study my own cognitive predispositions > >to believe things that are not real with the fascination of a Trappist monk > >reading scripture. With each revelation of how I misperceive and fool > >myself with false confidence about my reasoning I take a tiny step towards > >knowing what I do NOT know. I will never reach a goal of perfection, I am > >just trying to minimize my own bullshit. > > > > And thats what i see of value in your commentaries on Bud at gas pump. > (Kindly) helping people to see their own (possible) bullshit. others held > you. Pass it on. I think I am more appreciate of the people who "held" me than the people who helped me but then I a bit of a hedonist! > > > > > I have attempted to put into words the experience I had when I lost the > > constant inner perception that I was being watched or known by a creator > > inside my mind. The perfect silence of solitude for the first time without > > the belief that there was a being who knew my thoughts and whom I could > > communicate with my thoughts. And then going forward with inner privacy for > > the first time, knowing that it was all up to me now, there was no one to > > beseech or thank for the conditions of my own life. > > > > Entering into non belief is as worthy of poetic expression as any born > > again experience but it also has fundamental differences. It isn't just a > > taste of humble pie, it is eating the whole thing and realizing that I am > > not special or eternal or the possessor of perfect knowledge about how the > > world works and our place in it. To just sit with the mystery of life > > without mitigating it with assumptions has given me a lot of personal > > happiness and peace. To accept that nature is NOT supporting my desires and > > that it may just be silently growing a tumor somewhere that will kill me is > > both humbling and at first scary. I am subject to the randomness of life > > and my state of mind does not give me a better or worse chance of being > > crushed by a tractor trailer the next time I venture out on the Beltway. > > It doesn't NOT happen because I am special and it doesn't happen because I > > deserved it. Shit just happens and only a handful of people who care about > > you give your life or death any personal meaning afterward. Contributions > > to art and science give another meaning and value to our lives of course. > > > > I understand this point of view is not for everybody. And for a person who > > believes that they have a special insight into the purpose of life that > > they feel sure of, I'm not sure I could recommend the path to discovering > > that their castles may be floating in the air and there is no way to build > > a solid foundation under them now. You just have to let the thing drop and > > go back to watching the waves on your little pile of sand. There may be a > > simple beauty to a pile of sand, but it will never have the grandiosity of > > the spires and turrets of a fancifully constructed castle. > > > > Thanks for the launching pad brother! > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to have a running commentary of this sort on > > > on personal, if not spacey, descriptions of experience. Perhaps have > > > Curtis as a guest commentator on Bhudda at the Gas Pump. > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <geezerfreak@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > These claims are usefull in examining when scientific ignorance > > > > > becomes scientific fraud. > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Rick Archer" <rick@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments from someone in FF: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trivedi/Guruji was in Fairfield this past weekend. He offers > > > > > > blessings to > > > > > > both groups and individuals. Huge crowd on Wednesday the 17th at > > > > > > Sondheim. > > > > > > Then smaller crowd at Morning Star on Sat the 20th, more individual > > > > > > attention. > > > > > > > > > > > > He's returning to FF on April 18. Group sessions are $15-25. Still > > > > > > powerful. > > > > > > Some knowledge, etc. from him: > > > > > > > > > > No problems here. Sprititul claims need no more support than > > > > > assertions that the undifined "blessings" are taking place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Earth changing consciousness faster than individuals. Mother > > > > > > Earth's > > > > > > frequency is alpha. > > > > > > > > > > This claim is getting warmer. Alpha is a specific frequency so it > > > > > should require some description of the measurment used to make it > > > > > meaningful. It is sciency sounding but meaningless without context. > > > > > > > > > > If we resonate with Her, then She can meet Her > > > > > > responsibility of taking care of us. > > > > > > > > > > Spiritual claim,none of my business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People immediately shift to alpha when being blessed by Trivedi. > > > > > > MUM > > > > > > scientist Alaric Arenander tested his wife Cynthia who's been > > > > > > rounding for > > > > > > 3+ years. Her alpha, already high, increased with eyes closed, then > > > > > > dramatically increased when Trivedi did blessing. > > > > > > > > > > Here we start to cross the line of using specific terms that are > > > > > measurable to give more credence to the spiritual claims. Without > > > > > establishing anything to compare this measurement to it is > > > > > meaningless. Does Benny Hin get the same results? Does alpha > > > > > increase when other people say sweet things to a person who is hooked > > > > > up? No metric is given and no context to understand the claim. And > > > > > what is the standard deviation of these measurments to determine > > > > > their statistical significance? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conductivity is very important word on this planet, ability to flow > > > > > > energy. > > > > > > 5% of people are super conductors, 20% good conductors. Depends on > > > > > > receiver > > > > > > having low resistance. > > > > > > > > > > I'm gunna just substitute having low resistance with suggestibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great analysis Curtis! Without your posts FFL would be hardly worth > > > > visiting many days. > > > > > > > > Back to this Conductivity thing....you have to admit he is DAMN clever > > > > here. If you swallow his thing hook and line, why....brother YOU must > > > > be one the select 5% who are Super Conductors. You ride the very > > > > special bus indeed. > > > > > > > > OR...are you that 20% of merely "good" conductors. What's it gonna be > > > > brother...super special or "good"? Which are you? > > > > > > > > Yeah man, gotta hand it to the guy. He's in the right place to run this > > > > kind of thing since he knows folks who are in FFL consider themselves > > > > mighty special as it is. > > > > > > > > > >
