--- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltabl...@...> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], tartbrain <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], tartbrain <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > First thanks for reading anything I write here! The good will behind > > > your suggestion is much appreciated. > > > > > > I think my brand of skepticism is not appropriate for personal challenges > > > to an individual. People whose identities include the cluster of beliefs > > > that they are enlightened are doing it for deep psychological reasons > > > that should not be casually challenged. > > > > I was not thinking of challenging. But rather asking questions. Some of > > your posts get into high energy sarcasm -- which is funny and piercing. > > If it was a person pitching shit to sell I would love to! But part of Ricks' > power and charm is the non judgmental space he creates. I think that is > important to his success formula for the series as it has been on FFL. I am > appreciative of people who enjoy my writing here but also am aware of the > buzz kill effect my POV has for believers. But thanks for telling me I make > you laugh that is the highest compliment. I am a fan of your writing here > too so the feeling is mutual. > > > > > I was thinking of a commentary, a later overlay -- like a directors > > comments track on a DVD, not necessarily a convo with the people, but > > rather asking things like if one were to try to validate this experience, > > what would be necessary, how would one do it. And distinguishing between > > personal interpretation based on biases and limited life experience (all of > > us fit in that category). Possibly giving hypothetical alternative to the > > interpretation. And even going after the validity of the experience itself > > -- wish fulfillment and deservingness -- and stretching ones perceptions to > > fit the desired goal. And how hard it must be to live in a community of > > superhero spiritual attainees -- rambling on and on and on about their > > experience. "Me too" -- the desire for inclusiveness and social esteem is a > > powerful force that can shape our perception, not to mention interpretation > > of that maligned or misaligned perception. > > > > And of course some experiences may be dazzling real, and the interpretation > > of them spot on. > > I haven't seen anyone make that case convincingly yet but I have to see some > more shows. The idea of Rick's project is brilliant by either POV, let's > hear the claims. > > > > > > > > > > It would give me no joy and would go against my own personal values to > > > personally challenge people's beliefs who are not hurting anyone and just > > > want to feel special by interpreting their internal experience this way. > > > > > > I do not discount that you can shift the way you see the world and > > > yourself through lots of meditation. I did it too. I am challenging the > > > underlying interpretation of what it means. But on a personal basis this > > > often is interpreted as a personal putdown or identity challenge. I am > > > trying to maintain good intellectual boundaries between what I choose to > > > believe and what others choose. > > > > > > This does not include the people who take money for their > > > "enlightenedness" in some form. > > > > Taking away peoples attention -- and diminishing a persons or group's > > grounding in reality -- may actually be a worse thing than taking money. > > This is a profound insight. I don't know how I think of it. Of course I > agree personally and philosophically, but I'm not sure some of these people > are going to have a better go at "realty" without this buffer of specialness. > I'm just sure of one thing, my lack of ability to judge who to challenge
I don't see it as challenging the person. Just as in discussion, not challenging the person, or labeling them something negative, but rather looking at the "idea" -- how is it any different from some fantasy -- and how would one know. (Though when you experience something profound -- you KNOW. "Know what" is open to debate, but you KNOW that experience. Like an orgasm. You KNOW you just had an awesome experience. Explaining it seems sort of irrelevant. >based on psychological stability. This may be better left to mental health >experts to distinguish someone who just believes somethings I don't, and >someone who is unhinged by their internal experiences. I do believe that some >people with the best experiences are mentally ill and being co-dependently >supported by a community of people who are not helping them by buying in. But >obviously many are not ill and I can't really tell the difference! Thats a key insight -- in some cases (so it seems) its a co-dependent relationship. I have seen it where people feed on one another. You buy into my trip, and I buy into yours. And its all so groovy. > > > > > > Those people deserve the same push back of reason we would apply to any > > > predator con in society. I consider Trivedi one of those because his > > > misuse of science is fraudulent. > > > > > > I only saw the first Gas Pump episode and they were a sweet couple who > > > believe they have achieved a valued subjective state of mind. All I > > > could say to them is "good on ya mate." > > > > Thats the only one I saw too. Similar reaction. But I could see some gentle > > and kind probing being useful, to them, or at least viewers. Its one thing > > to stand up and say "Here is what (I interpret as) my experience is. Its > > another thing for viewers to get sucked into the drive for social > > inclusiveness and quest for personal meaning and significance of ones life > > -- and swallowing the whole rap without questioning. > > Agreed. I think so more clarification of exactly what IS being claimed would > be useful. Sometimes my dark skeptical heart is satisfied if I can just get > beyond the innuendo of claims and get someone to just say what they believe > outright. Chopra is a master of the implied claim without having to take the > skeptical heat of how it would sound if he stated the claim outright. Think > how convinced some of us were there Maharishi really had magical powers, all > through innuendo. > > > > > > > > > > But your kind suggestion does lead me to consider how I might express my > > > shift to non enlightenedness as the kind of Superman Comix opposite world > > > revelation. One of the things I try to express in personal conversations > > > with religious people is that I consider my insight into life as hard > > > earned and as precious as they do their own spiritual insights. I am not > > > living in a world full of negativity against beliefs but in the positive > > > state of my own personally valued insight into my life and the world. It > > > is as liberating to me to have dispensed with the God belief, among > > > others, as it is for people who have chosen to embrace them. What I want > > > from believers is the same respect for my non-belief as they give other > > > believers who choose different Gods instead of trying to diminish my > > > insight as a personality defect which is the most common ad hominem move. > > > Spiritual people are usually not too kind to non spiritual people in > > > personal discussions and the reverse is often true. > > > > > > There is a personal joy in discovering new ways that I am often full of > > > shit in my beliefs and reasoning. > > > > Which can happen (eating ones own shit) by the trap of current knowledge. > > 100 years from now people will laugh at most of our "pre-science" beliefs. > > Imagine a highly trained and esteemed doctor in 1800 reacting to a > > space-time travelers insistance that he he should wash his hands before > > surgery. "What balder dash! Invisible little creatures causing disease and > > infection?!!! What utter rubbish! Who are these invisible beings -- where > > do they come from, how do you know they exist if we can't see them. Lock > > this lunny up" > > > > > > > > >I get a real pleasure in discovering new ways that my mind is an imperfect > > >instrument in discovering truth. I study my own cognitive predispositions > > >to believe things that are not real with the fascination of a Trappist > > >monk reading scripture. With each revelation of how I misperceive and > > >fool myself with false confidence about my reasoning I take a tiny step > > >towards knowing what I do NOT know. I will never reach a goal of > > >perfection, I am just trying to minimize my own bullshit. > > > > > > > > And thats what i see of value in your commentaries on Bud at gas pump. > > (Kindly) helping people to see their own (possible) bullshit. others held > > you. Pass it on. > > I think I am more appreciate of the people who "held" me than the people who > helped me but then I a bit of a hedonist! > > > > > > > > > > > I have attempted to put into words the experience I had when I lost the > > > constant inner perception that I was being watched or known by a creator > > > inside my mind. The perfect silence of solitude for the first time > > > without the belief that there was a being who knew my thoughts and whom I > > > could communicate with my thoughts. And then going forward with inner > > > privacy for the first time, knowing that it was all up to me now, there > > > was no one to beseech or thank for the conditions of my own life. > > > > > > Entering into non belief is as worthy of poetic expression as any born > > > again experience but it also has fundamental differences. It isn't just a > > > taste of humble pie, it is eating the whole thing and realizing that I am > > > not special or eternal or the possessor of perfect knowledge about how > > > the world works and our place in it. To just sit with the mystery of life > > > without mitigating it with assumptions has given me a lot of personal > > > happiness and peace. To accept that nature is NOT supporting my desires > > > and that it may just be silently growing a tumor somewhere that will kill > > > me is both humbling and at first scary. I am subject to the randomness > > > of life and my state of mind does not give me a better or worse chance of > > > being crushed by a tractor trailer the next time I venture out on the > > > Beltway. It doesn't NOT happen because I am special and it doesn't > > > happen because I deserved it. Shit just happens and only a handful of > > > people who care about you give your life or death any personal meaning > > > afterward. Contributions to art and science give another meaning and > > > value to our lives of course. > > > > > > I understand this point of view is not for everybody. And for a person > > > who believes that they have a special insight into the purpose of life > > > that they feel sure of, I'm not sure I could recommend the path to > > > discovering that their castles may be floating in the air and there is no > > > way to build a solid foundation under them now. You just have to let the > > > thing drop and go back to watching the waves on your little pile of sand. > > > There may be a simple beauty to a pile of sand, but it will never have > > > the grandiosity of the spires and turrets of a fancifully constructed > > > castle. > > > > > > Thanks for the launching pad brother! > > > > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to have a running commentary of this sort on > > > > on personal, if not spacey, descriptions of experience. Perhaps have > > > > Curtis as a guest commentator on Bhudda at the Gas Pump. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <geezerfreak@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > These claims are usefull in examining when scientific ignorance > > > > > > becomes scientific fraud. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Rick Archer" <rick@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments from someone in FF: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trivedi/Guruji was in Fairfield this past weekend. He offers > > > > > > > blessings to > > > > > > > both groups and individuals. Huge crowd on Wednesday the 17th at > > > > > > > Sondheim. > > > > > > > Then smaller crowd at Morning Star on Sat the 20th, more > > > > > > > individual > > > > > > > attention. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He's returning to FF on April 18. Group sessions are $15-25. > > > > > > > Still > > > > > > > powerful. > > > > > > > Some knowledge, etc. from him: > > > > > > > > > > > > No problems here. Sprititul claims need no more support than > > > > > > assertions that the undifined "blessings" are taking place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Earth changing consciousness faster than individuals. Mother > > > > > > > Earth's > > > > > > > frequency is alpha. > > > > > > > > > > > > This claim is getting warmer. Alpha is a specific frequency so it > > > > > > should require some description of the measurment used to make it > > > > > > meaningful. It is sciency sounding but meaningless without context. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we resonate with Her, then She can meet Her > > > > > > > responsibility of taking care of us. > > > > > > > > > > > > Spiritual claim,none of my business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People immediately shift to alpha when being blessed by Trivedi. > > > > > > > MUM > > > > > > > scientist Alaric Arenander tested his wife Cynthia who's been > > > > > > > rounding for > > > > > > > 3+ years. Her alpha, already high, increased with eyes closed, > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > dramatically increased when Trivedi did blessing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here we start to cross the line of using specific terms that are > > > > > > measurable to give more credence to the spiritual claims. Without > > > > > > establishing anything to compare this measurement to it is > > > > > > meaningless. Does Benny Hin get the same results? Does alpha > > > > > > increase when other people say sweet things to a person who is > > > > > > hooked up? No metric is given and no context to understand the > > > > > > claim. And what is the standard deviation of these measurments to > > > > > > determine their statistical significance? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conductivity is very important word on this planet, ability to > > > > > > > flow energy. > > > > > > > 5% of people are super conductors, 20% good conductors. Depends > > > > > > > on receiver > > > > > > > having low resistance. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm gunna just substitute having low resistance with suggestibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great analysis Curtis! Without your posts FFL would be hardly worth > > > > > visiting many days. > > > > > > > > > > Back to this Conductivity thing....you have to admit he is DAMN > > > > > clever here. If you swallow his thing hook and line, why....brother > > > > > YOU must be one the select 5% who are Super Conductors. You ride the > > > > > very special bus indeed. > > > > > > > > > > OR...are you that 20% of merely "good" conductors. What's it gonna be > > > > > brother...super special or "good"? Which are you? > > > > > > > > > > Yeah man, gotta hand it to the guy. He's in the right place to run > > > > > this kind of thing since he knows folks who are in FFL consider > > > > > themselves mighty special as it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
