> > > My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form > > > of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark > > > as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications > > > themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, > > > catering to the perceived desires of the paying > > > clients, and as a result of those desires, self- > > > fulfilling. > > > > Thats a nice opinion. However, what back ground do you have in > > Jyotish? How many years of study and practice? > > As a practitioner? None. As someone who has > had Jyotish charts done for him, and listened > to the Jyotishi's predictions? > Some, enough > to stand on my description of such predictions > above. I have so far encountered none more > insightful or accurate than the predictions > a good "cold reader" such as Curtis talks about > could make, for anyone, without having any kind > of "charts" in front of them. > > YMMV. Then again, if it does, I might suggest > (as a possibility, not a declaration of what > is happening) that there might be some possibility > of either "self-fulfilling prophecy" (believe it > will happen strongly enough, and you make it > happen) or "rose-coloured glasses" (having been > told that the future will look like X, tending > to interpret even Y's as X's) going on.
I appreciate the issues your raise. If anything I am possible more skeptical than most -- and I certainly have seen massive amounts of charlatan activity in the name of jyotish. And I never had any interest in western astrology -- considered it bunk (Generally still do) . But after an initial lecture I heard on jyotish, and an intriguing yet ultimately disappointing set of readings, I took upon my self to learn some of it, read / studied hard/ half a dozen good books -- did a lot of jyotish computer work, etc. With this, I perhaps am far more aware of its weaknesses than many. However, I came across enough uncanny stuff in my chart -- and a few others that I remain intrigued / while skeptical. While we all have biases and flaws in reasoning, perception, analysis etc, I am aware of many of them -- and do endeavor to really challenge my assupmtions and hypotheses. And I am fully open to the possibility that I may be connecting dots that are meningless -- and deluded by irrational proofs etc. But I have some background in analysis and statistics, I am aware of what constitutes a degree of confidence in ones assertions and the implications that data may and often does not reveal. So I am highly skeptical, and its an informed skepticism -- more so that many that wax on about the emptiness of jyotish. however, I am intrigued by some results. > > As you suggest, what is needed are scientific > tests, made against non-vague, falsifiable > predictions. Unfortunately, many Jyotishi (and > certainly the ones on this forum) don't seem > to want to *produce* any of these non-vague, > falsifiable predictions for testing. I fully agree, many people in jyotish I have encountered, including well known authors / jyotishees, have no clue as to what constitutes a testable hypothesis and the means to verify it. Its one reason I generally stay clear of things jyotish. I am not in any way a TB jyotishee. > > Or are you just shooting the breeze about some casual observation > > you may have had years ago? > > That, too. :-) Don't we all. > > Nothing wrong with shooting the breeze. > > As if you have the ability to define "wrong." :-) > > I'm just having fun with this, dude. I happen > to *generally* believe that Jyotish is a placebo > or a "cold reading" phenomenon. It could be. I don't spend much time on it -- so thats an indication of how valuable I assess that it is for me. > But as I said, > I'm willing to be proven wrong. It seems to be > the Jyotishi who are unwilling to stop using > vague, non-specific, apply-to-anyone cold reader > language in their "predictions" and give some > scientist (or even us) some real predictions > to work with. > Agreed. And I started my rant -- for fun -- because I at times see people attacking strawmen of jyotish -- not actual jytotish. So its fun to explore their irrationality when they are claiming jyotish is irrational. But I am warped that way. And of course there are plenty of things to critique in real jyotish also. But usually the discussion never gets there. And i appreciate your good will in discussing this. And I am not challenging you -- just raising some observations and sharing some of my own experience. (And if I am out to lunch on this, it will hardly be the first time) :)
