> > The levitation I and thousands of other people witnessed
> > *was* real. We saw it. We felt it.
> >
> > Shemp's upset because our experience doesn't match
> > his fantasy of what such an experience "should" be like,
>
> My "fantasy"?
Yes, your fantasy.
> All I'm asking for is a reasonably honest employment of the
> word "real".
What you're asking for is a definition of levitation that
can be verified by someone outside of yourself. You
are saying that you don't trust subjective experience.
I understand, and I wish you luck in finding an exper-
ience that you can be comfortable with, one that other
people can verfiy for you, so that you don't have to
rely on your own perceptions. I had no such exper-
ience, and am thankful for it, *because* it helped me
to rely on my own perception. Different strokes for
different folks, that's all.
> > For those with more open minds, here's the deal. What
> > I experienced was obviously (because not everyone
> > saw it) a phenomenon that has at least a partially subjec-
> > tive aspect to it.
>
> "Partially subjective"...that's real big of you, Unc, to concede
> that a phenomenon that you originally claimed was "real" -- and one,
> by the way, if it actually occurred, would not rival by SURPASS in
> its importance for mankind the Moon Landing -- just may not have
> happened as "real" as 100% of reasonable and rational people would
> expect that word to be used.
Shemp, I'm trying to be HONEST with you. Levitation is
no big deal. You only think it is because you haven't
experienced it.
You've built up all these fantasies in your mind about how
big a deal it would be to witness, and how the world would
change if it could be "proved." I'm trying to tell you that this
is a fantasy. I'm trying to tell you that if 100 people were in
a room and were able to witness 100% "real" levitation, by
any standard you could specify, 50 of them would have
found a way to deny that the experience ever happened
within a week, and another 25 would have found a way to
deny it within a month.
The only spiritual writer who I think has really "gotten"
this phenomenon is Carlos Castaneda. Even though his
credibility is suspect in many areas, there is not a doubt
in my mind that he did experience a few of the phenom-
ena he wrote about, because of the way he described
his *reaction* to those phenomena. It's not intellectual;
it's viceral; it hits you in the gut. And your gut does its
absolute best to make the experience Go Away, to find
a way to write it off to hallucination or whatever, SO THAT
it goes away. I watched this happen, both within myself
and to most of my friends, for a period of 14 years.
Anyone who tells you that they'd just sit there blissfully
and be thankful to witness a "real" siddhi just hasn't done
it yet. Simple as that. The energy field that surrounds the
performance of the siddhis is very powerful. My experi-
ence tells me that those who wax blissy about having had
such an experience really haven't.
> > However, *enough* people saw it -- many
> > of them people off the street with no expectations and no
> > prior suggestion having been made about what they might
> > or might not see -- to indicate that something was going on.
>
> I was channel-surfing this morning and came by this new magician
> show on A&E -- I think it's called "MindFreak" -- in which the star
> of the show does incredible levitating for the camera.
>
> Well, we all know that it is NOT real...that it is magic of some
> sort. Yet not just "enough" people saw him do this magic but
> virtually 100% of everyone who saw him perform his magic saw him
> lift-off.
>
> But would any serious person describe the experience as a "real"
> levitation?
It's a magic show, Shemp. And you're just struggling to
find reasons to disbelieve my experience. Someday it'll
happen to you -- you will witness "real" levitation, even
by your own standards (that is, someone else can tell
you that it's all Ok) and you will then be struggling to find
some way to disbelieve your OWN experience. Mark my
words.
> > There *might* be levitation that extends to the physical
> > plane,
>
> ...then don't use the word "real", please.
I will use any word I please. Shemp, you obviously do
not consider purely subjective experiences to be "real."
That doesn't really impress me; rather, it makes me feel
a little sorry for you.
> > and which could be recorded by videocameras and
> > measured by instruments. I don't know. I do know what I
> > experienced, and it was pretty neat.
>
> ...so was the magic show I saw on TV....
>
> > I *also* understand the factors that lead some people to
> > dump on such experiences when they are reported. Some
> > of it is rigidity (fear that the world might not actually work the
> > way they imagine it to). Some of it is self importance or
> > group self importance ("If it didn't happen in a TM context
> > it can't be real"). Some of it in this case is past indoctrination
> > from a.m.t., where the game is and has been for years for a
> > few people to demonize and attempt to discredit the people
> > they don't like.
>
> The question is one of honesty in the use of words.
Oh, I see. I'm supposed to use the Shemp-approved vocabulary. :-)
> Instead of
> trying to fool people into believing that you had actually
> witnessed "real" levitation you should have said something to the
> effect: 'hey, I was/am heavily brainwashed by a messianic cult
> figure who hypnotized me into believing that the magic tricks that
> he perpetrated on me and others were real...just like Doug Henning".
See why I prefer my own vocabulary? :-)
And you claim you're not angry? And a bit panicky?
If you really look into what you're experiencing, Shemp,
I think you'll find that what you are most fearful of is that
my experience was *exactly* as I have described it, and
thus as "real" as an experience can get. Your very
vehemence betrays your real feelings about this whole
deal. If you just didn't believe me, you wouldn't be going
on like this. But you are. Your buttons got pushed. Don't
you think it might be worth examining *which* button
got pushed?
I think it's the one that is afraid of considering your own
subjective experience to be real.
> > The thing is, this reaction or a similar one would've come
> > up on ANY forum in which I posted my honest experiences.
> >
> > The larger question is what someone who HAS experienced
> > stuff like this should do.
>
> You should enjoy the magic show and, like Doug Henning suggests,
> enjoy the "wonder" of it all. But leave the show knowing that
> you've seen magic and not "reality".
Sez the person who has never witnessed levitation to the
person who has. Methinks the Stooge doth protest too much.
> > Shemp's advice is that I should lie,
> > or lay low, and never mention anything about it.
>
> No, Shemp's advice is that you should not try to pump up your ego by
> trying to deceive people by misusing the English language.
Shemp, YOU are the one who is terrified to call anything
that can't be objectively verified "real." Don't try to pass your
fears along to me. I got over that one. You're obviously
still working on it. And not gracefully.
> > Sorry, but
> > I don't feel the need to do that, just because someone gets
> > their rigidity buttons pushed by hearing something that doesn't
> > jibe with his preconceptions.
>
> Yes I am very rigid about people lying and manipulating the use of
> words. Guilty as charged.
Have you ever transcended, Shemp? Was it real?
Prove it.
If you can't, consider shutting the fuck up about what is
"real" and what is not.
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