Thanks Curtis - non-trollish here too.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "whynotnow7" <whynotnow7@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Curtis, What do you identify as "trollish behavior"? I am curious
> > because I was reading up on it (wiki-p), and the distinction appears to be
> > a troll is someone making disruptive posts, in order to provoke an
> > emotional reaction, vs. those participating in a current discussion, or
> > presenting an idea for discussion.
>
> That's the one.
>
> I didn't read Ravi's post as trollish. He states his ideas directly, but he
> is also willing to clarify and discuss them.
>
> That is exactly what he refuses to do. It is a consistent behavior.
>
> >
> > On the other hand there is a practice by others here, where the intent is
> > to proclaim something knowingly false, or distorted, in order to provoke
> > those on the forum. The high minded justification appears to be that it is
> > somehow "tantric" to create this kind of conflict, when all that is
> > happening is those expressing things in this way are enjoying their
> > intellect, posting such things seen as trollish as a means to prove to
> > themselves again and again that they can express ideas.
>
> I take it case by case. There are only a few posters I consider trollish
> here, incapable of conversation. But it may be in the eye of the reader. If
> I feel someone's post could be substituted with the phrase "you are a poopy
> pants" I suspect trollish intent. I see this place as a vortex to enhance
> understanding between people with different points of view. But I am on no
> pedestal. In retrospect some of my replies to Doug might fall into the
> trollish category.
>
> >
> > Perhaps that is the distinction between a troll post (exclusive) and a
> > non-troll post - The troll post is posted purely for the delight of
> > expressing an idea - it is all about the poster and the reactions he can
> > elicit. The intent is not to have a discussion but rather provoke a
> > response, which is then not responded to to form a discussion, but rather,
> > enjoyed by the troll as the reflected rays of the troll post. It is all
> > about the troll.
>
> Wow, then I definitely owe Doug an apology. Sorry buddy, I'll try to reign
> in my inner troll in the future.
>
> I make a distinction about expressing my feelings about an idea and actually
> aiming at a person. If I say that I believe that the ideas of a god seems to
> have no solid basis, I am not being a troll for all those who believe it. I
> am aiming at an idea and we should all be able to maintain healthy enough
> intellectual boundaries to know that it is not a statement about the holder
> of the idea. Of course in the heat of discussion this line can get blurred.
> In my experience here, my stating my opinion about ideas can often invoke a
> personal attack. I think this is lame. A few posters here are capable of
> disagreeing with me and telling me why. Those are the people I respect here
> no matter how different our POV is on any topic.
>
> >
> > An inclusive post on the other hand is a comment on, or an initiation of, a
> > discussion. Given that criteria, I'd characterize Ravi's post as inclusive
> > and non-trollish, a comment on yours and Edg's discussion. What do you
> > think?
>
> I still think it was trollish. I asked him to enter into a more detailed
> discussion about what he disagreed with and his response was that he was
> above that kind of discussion.
>
> I do appreciate your allowing me to reflect on my own behavior here Jim. This
> was a very productive, non trollish discussion for me, thanks.
>
>
>
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Yogi" <raviyogi@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nice piece, Dude.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wow Curtis & Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others
> > > > who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
> > > > English the summary would be - "my shit doesn't smell any better or
> > > > worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant."
> > >
> > > So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual
> > > list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
> > >
> > > The troll routine is soooooo 1999 Ravi. It isn't new, and it isn't
> > > interesting. Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with
> > > if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in
> > > > > > that we also have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that
> > > > > > we mindfully have put into place? Even the mundane is ritualized
> > > > > > thereby. I always have mustard with my hot dog just as much as
> > > > > > these guys have to have a certain amount of candles lit for their
> > > > > > "hotdogish" ceremony. See?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure like me never missing House even though it has sooo jumped the
> > > > > shark. We can try to give our lives routine. In my line of work that
> > > > > is not too easy which is one of the things I dig about it. I am
> > > > > challenged by a completely different audience every show. But the
> > > > > level of sameness in their lives is exponentially higher. When I was
> > > > > living in Maharishi's approximation of that life my mind would focus
> > > > > on tiny differences to give me some sense of non routine. The bigger
> > > > > issue with monastic life is that they never interact with some guy at
> > > > > the filling station who snakes in front of you when you have been
> > > > > waiting in line for the air hose for two cars.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I feel like I'm in a box no less ornate or less armored against
> > > > > > change than these monks, only they get to claim they're routines
> > > > > > are spiritually evolving them at a faster (fastest?) pace than
> > > > > > ordinary life can "do Edg."
> > > > >
> > > > > I seriously doubt you are. And you raised kids so you have
> > > > > automatically lived a life of new shit coming at you that kicks my
> > > > > life's surprises' butt.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, must be
> > > > > > omnipresent, so if I'm to honor that, then ordinary life has to
> > > > > > have the deepest divinity available, and the only missing element
> > > > > > is my intent to see it or, lacking the eyesight, try to see it if I
> > > > > > can evolve a mind capable of doing so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Very Thomas Merton. I think that way too.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround themselves in
> > > > > > a cocoon of sacred relics, and thus perforce are constantly
> > > > > > stimulated by such objects to re-up their commitment to place
> > > > > > awareness on the divine,
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it really "the divine" of a bunch of ideas and words that aspire
> > > > > to that? I really think that this type of focus is totally overrated.
> > > > >
> > > > > < but the likes of you and I are out here winging it with the onus of
> > > > > penetrating the common to see that everything has a deep silence
> > > > > about it which is the exact holiness these monks seek.>
> > > > >
> > > > > I think they are more like us than different. They have just made
> > > > > all the things in society (sans chicks) into a doll house. They may
> > > > > think about life more than an average person, but they are thinking
> > > > > within a pretty tiny perspective. I don't see them as that deep or
> > > > > profound, just a mix like in my own life.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To me the difference is that you and I eat fresh off the vine, and
> > > > > > they're doing canned food. We might not always get what we want,
> > > > > > but we get it fresh and tastier than that fare from the dusty tomes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edg
> > > > >
> > > > > I did enjoy the concentration of life's focus when I lived that way
> > > > > or visited them in monasteries. There is a definite hippie charm to
> > > > > their lives. But I believe that it would be a very limiting context
> > > > > for my life to grow in. And the chance for living a live of folle au
> > > > > deux times everyone in the monastery seems pretty high. That is too
> > > > > many people trying to agree on something for my tastes. As I said in
> > > > > my original reaction, I believe they have forced their ideas on the
> > > > > world rather than being open to other perspectives on it. And the
> > > > > busy busy busy deal with other dudes in your face all the time is my
> > > > > idea (and Camus') of hell!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> > > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was
> > > > > > > into spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their
> > > > > > > alternative lifestyle. Sort of how I view people way into the
> > > > > > > tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance. I certainly
> > > > > > > dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the
> > > > > > > dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image of Mary. I'm sure if I
> > > > > > > was to step into a monastery today I would happily slip into the
> > > > > > > the kind of trance I used to love so much in unlimited doses back
> > > > > > > in the day.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos made me
> > > > > > > feel as though I was watching people who had decided that rather
> > > > > > > than being open to life on its own terms and discovering truth,
> > > > > > > they had opted for dictating what they collectively decided truth
> > > > > > > is and then were only going with that. It frankly smacks of good
> > > > > > > old fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in
> > > > > > > their surety for me to respect them. It seems a bit dishonest,
> > > > > > > slippery, as if they are in collusion in a "we state it so it is
> > > > > > > so" game.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed
> > > > > > > on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the
> > > > > > > badass bikers of spirituality. I mean once you accept the
> > > > > > > premise of spirituality, it does make some sense to go for it.
> > > > > > > Not even letting your "small boss" get in the way. That was the
> > > > > > > thinking I had when I went off to Sidhaland. I wanted to put all
> > > > > > > my eggs into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual
> > > > > > > eggs in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in
> > > > > > > the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW. Really, we were sure of it.
> > > > > > > Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was the solid ground
> > > > > > > of our mystical experiences, we lacked the epistemological tools
> > > > > > > to question it all. We had been taught the way to evaluate it by
> > > > > > > the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality. So it
> > > > > > > all fit so nicely, puuuuurrrrrfectly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. Really
> > > > > > > important things. Things I had believed were irrefutable. So
> > > > > > > now I have a bit more humble pie on my dinner table and a whole
> > > > > > > lot more of a "reaaaalllllly" in my reaction to people who get
> > > > > > > into groups and decide they know how it all really really is,
> > > > > > > beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond what I now have
> > > > > > > accepted is the human condition. We aren't nearly as clever as
> > > > > > > we think we are. It is software bug that we need to respect more
> > > > > > > if our goal is to go beyond, "hey me and Fred and Sam have all
> > > > > > > decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime sleepover
> > > > > > > to reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is what's
> > > > > > > up. Fer reaaaalllllll."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some
> > > > > > > great impression of humility and a rap about how they are
> > > > > > > innocent and open to where their life leads them. They may
> > > > > > > actually believe that they are open-minded. But they are playing
> > > > > > > with a stacked deck and their openness is carefully proscribed to
> > > > > > > the very limited range that wont rock the boat. They are not
> > > > > > > getting out of that boat into the big old ocean of "not so damn
> > > > > > > sure about the Jesus thing".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland. It was a carefully
> > > > > > > regulated life that had its slightly mind numbing charms. And I
> > > > > > > know that some people are really not capable of being
> > > > > > > mainstreamed so this kind of safe environment is the best place
> > > > > > > for them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But I would rather take the bitter pill of "you don't have life
> > > > > > > all figured out" over their lives full of being busy being busy.
> > > > > > > They max out their schedules in Athos so they never have to sit
> > > > > > > in some real uncoerced silence and face the dilemma of being
> > > > > > > human without a manual spelling it all out. I am glad they found
> > > > > > > something they like to fill their day with. But 10 minutes for
> > > > > > > meals is just disrespectful to the kind of food I like to eat.
> > > > > > > And huddling together in a fabricated reality is a pretty cheap
> > > > > > > substitute to letting life wash over you on its own terms. They
> > > > > > > are giving a lot of lip-service to a God, but their very
> > > > > > > lifestyle negates so much of what would have to be his creation.
> > > > > > > You know, if one of the thousands of God ideas turned out to be
> > > > > > > true.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajradhatu@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:04 AM, seventhray1 wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I take it you were impressed by what you saw, or what you
> > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > about the daily living on Mt. Athos. I had kind of expected
> > > > > > > > > something different. It seemed more formal, and more
> > > > > > > > > ceremonial
> > > > > > > > > than I had expected. Really, I question the degree of
> > > > > > > > > spirtituality present there. What do you think?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > They seemed to be engaging in some sort of divine theurgy,
> > > > > > > > didn't they?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Quite impressive.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
