--- In [email protected], navashok wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "Ann" wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], turquoiseb wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Richard J. Williams" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Michael Jackson: > > > > > I am wondering what the deal is on puja anyway. > > > > > > > > Puja is all about placement and positioning. > > > > > > IMHO, puja is all about moodmaking and the > > > placebo effect, both for the people performing > > > them, and for the people watching them and being > > > instructed in some puja-accompanied technique. > > > > Said like the true cynic that you are. I am not saying you are wrong, it is > > just that this is exactly what I would expect you to say. Whether you truly > > believe it or not I don't know. But it certainly is a sweeping dismissal of > > the power or effect of the puja on its participants. > > > > > > TM teachers are actually instructed *to* moodmake > > > while performing the puja, and to "dwell on the > > > meaning of the words" while performing one. > > > > I wouldn't know about that but other teachers here would. Can anyone who > > are TM teachers here confirm that? > > Yes, it's certainly true. TM teachers usually don't talk about that, as it's > part of the agreement from that they don't talk about any of the confidential > aspects of the teaching. There is something called meaning and feeling, that > you have to hold in your mind while performing the puja. There are actually 4 > layers: The original sanskrit, the translated meaning, the associated > feeling, and a symbolic short explanation, and as a fifth layer, the action > of offerings. And you are tested for that too, under real-life conditions.
I understand holding the meaning and the feeling together as you perform the puja but would you characterize that as having been, as a teacher of TM "... instruct[ed] to moodmake while performing the puja..."? > > > > > > > Although there are undoubtedly people here who > > > would disagree with me, I never felt much of any- > > > thing while performing a puja. I don't believe > > > that the puja has *anything whatsoever* to do with > > > the effective "transmission of a mantra" or whether > > > the student derives any benefit from the meditation > > > being taught. > > > > Too bad. Sounds like you missed out a bit there. I'm not even a teacher and > > I am far, far from a moodmaker but boy, did those pujas feel GREAT - not > > based on my ideas of what they were supposed to do either. > > > Btw. I love the puja too. But I'd like to point out that it's not at all the > intellectual property of the TM movement. Everything of it, except for two > lines relating directly to Guru Dev, are part of other movements performances > too. For example the part after the offerings belongs to a very popular poem > called Guru Gita. The 'Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnur, Guru Devo Maheshwara' is > actually recited daily in an Indian school I know, that has nothing to do > with TM. It's just part of a larger tradition. > > > > > > I have been instructed in mantra-based techniques > > > that involved the chanting of a puja, and in tech- > > > niques that were taught in a group, with no "bells > > > and whistles" at all, just "Here's the mantra." I > > > found no difference the students' experiences -- > > > mine or other people's. > > > > I couldn't compare since the only technique I was ever officially taught > > was TM. > > > > > > I think it's ALL bells and whistles. For the teachers, > > > to lead them to believe that they are part of a long > > > "tradition" that, in the case of TM at least, does > > > not even exist -- Maharishi invented the TM technique, > > > and there is no record of it being taught similarly > > > that anyone can produce. In the case of the people > > > being taught, witnessing a ceremony they don't under- > > > stand, or even understand the language of, invokes > > > their inherent sense of Woo Woo, and leads them to > > > believe that there is something mystical going on. > > > > Not for me. It was just a ceremony, an experience, and a very nice one at > > that. I would love to have a puja performed in my presence every day. It's > > as pleasant as eating a great meal, having a massage or watching a great > > movie in some ways. A pleasurable, pleasant, satisfying activity in and of > > itself - no ideas, no trappings of great philosophy just simply enjoying > > and receiving an experience. Of course, it could be more than that too if > > you wanted to focus on it but for me it was a stand alone deal. > > > > > > I don't think there is. I think it's all moodmaking. > > > > Placebo, moodmaking, what does it matter? If you feel something, you feel > > something and if you don't, you don't. One or the other is neither wrong or > > right, better or worse. Let the masses swoon in delight if they want and > > you can sit back and smirk from the sidelines as you switch channels to > > another cop show. Each to his own. > > > > > The TM puja does nothing more than chanting a Catholic > > > mass in Latin would do > > > > I always loved that too. Having been raised Catholic and being old enough > > (born in 1956) meant I was able to experience Latin masses as a young > > child. I loved the incense, the chanting, the Latin. I guess I like ritual > > and ceremony to a certain extent anyway, no matter what tradition it comes > > from. So maybe I'm a sucker. > > > > >, or chanting nonsense words in > > > a made-up language. It's just bells and whistles used > > > to market a technique and make it seem more than it is. > > > YMMV. > > > > > >
