So what did everyone think about the concept of God telling him that evil has to exist for us to have free will?
________________________________ From: curtisdeltablues <curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Michael Shermer rebuts Eben Alexander --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Emily Reyn <emilymae.reyn@...> wrote: > > The title is the worse part of the book.  Did you read it?  The point of > the book isn't actually his NDE.  > Yup. > > > >________________________________ > > From: curtisdeltablues <curtisdeltablues@...> > >To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > >Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:35 AM > >Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Michael Shermer rebuts Eben Alexander > > > > > > > >Hi Emily, > > > >Hi five for bringing new material. I grabbed it at the library as soon as > >its catnip (for me) title had its effect. I had to read some of the > >critiques to understand the scientific issues with his claims. > > > >Evaluating this book is a great education in how we need to approach the > >flood of popular books from scientists or doctors without a background in > >the field. Scientific understanding is a collaborative process filled with > >outliers expanding the edges of the known as well as people who are just a > >bit off. It taught me a lot about how complex determining death is in the > >short run. In the long run it becomes more obvious! > > > >Neurosurgeons are as naive as anyone else concerning the issues with being > >confident of our knowledge if they have not studied epistemology. He makes > >a few fatal errors in his assumptions. > > > >Having had the kind of experiences he recounts in the altered states > >produced by lots of meditation, I understand the compelling nature of what > >the brain can produce. I suspect under the extreme conditions his was under > >are even more compelling. > > > >His title is fascinating: Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the > >Afterlife. It makes us feel as if we should take his claim more seriously > >because of his background doesn't it? It worked on me. But in the end we > >have a subjective account with no scientific way to know when exactly he had > >these experiences as his brain powered down and up. So we are left with > >another account that uses the tantalizing concept of "near" death which > >sounds more like death than "not" death in the same way that "barely" legal > >porn gets more Internet porn hits than "legal" porn. (Or so I am told having > >no first hand knowledge in this area.) > > > >Our minds are amazing and the collaborative effect of minds trying to get to > >the bottom of life's deepest questions is fascinating. I will always > >respond to the catnip of the outliers, but wont be surprised when, after > >more study, they don't quite deliver what they promised. I always learn from > >taking the ride. > > > >--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Emily Reyn <emilymae.reyn@> wrote: > >> > >> Read the book Xeno and then I would love to have a discussion with > >> you.....it was written by a neuroscientist after all.  And he addresses > >> exactly what you discuss below in the context of medical science.  > >> > >> > >> > >> >________________________________ > >> > From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius <anartaxius@> > >> >To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > >> >Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 8:22 PM > >> >Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Michael Shermer rebuts Eben Alexander > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Emily Reyn <emilymae.reyn@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> This is a beautiful picture.  Can you believe I just finished > >> >> this book?  Eben Alexander refutes all this in the later > >> >> Chapters of this book - he addresses this supposition of hallucination > >> >> specifically by making the very real point that his neocortex was not > >> >> functioning, amongst other things.  > >> >> > >> >How would he, in that state, know whether he even had a neocortex? > >> >Someone had to feed him this information. Neurologists point out that > >> >even in states where the patient seems to be in cardiac arrest, there is > >> >some slight activity that keeps a small amount of blood flow to the > >> >brain. In these emergency situations, there is no electroencephalographic > >> >monitoring of the brain, though that might be introduced as additional > >> >controls someday. No one has figured out just when a patient has the NDE > >> >in these situations as they cannot point out they are having an > >> >experience, so currently there are a lot of unknowns about these > >> >experiences. Those that believe in NDEs assume the brain is not > >> >functioning, but this is unknown except in the case where the patient > >> >does not revive, and then of course they do not report an NDE. These > >> >kinds of experiences often occur under very specific circumstances where > >> >a patient or a subject is not in a life threatening situation > such > >> as cardiac arrest, which is why scientists very substantially question > >> whether they have any 'supernatural' component at all. > >> >> > >> >> >________________________________ > >> >> > From: Yifu <yifuxero@> > >> >> >To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 7:04 PM > >> >> >Subject: [FairfieldLife] Michael Shermer rebuts Eben Alexander > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >"Allegory of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ" by Pat Devonas: > >> >> >http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/2/10741.jpg > >> >> > > >> >> >Dr. Michael Shermer attempts to rebut Dr. Eben Alexander's NDE as > >> >> >being genuinely "out of body" and supernatural. (Alexander is a > >> >> >neurosurgeon who had an NDE. Claims he traveled out of the body into > >> >> >supernatural dimensions in which he met deceased relatives, and > >> >> >listened to the OM.) > >> >> >... > >> >> >Shermer in Scientific American, Apr 2013, 86, essentially uses a > >> >> >"similarity" argument coupled with Occam's Razor. Shermer states: > >> >> >"Migraine headaches also produce halluncinations, which Sacks > >> >> >[neurologist Oliver Sacks] himself has experienced as a longtime > >> >> >sufferer, including a 'shimmering light' that was 'dazzlingly bring'" > >> >> >etc, etc, clouds, blah, blah. > >> >> >Then Shermer goes on to make the comparison: "Compare Sack's > >> >> >experience with that of Alexander's trip to heaven, where he was "in a > >> >> >place of clouds. Big, puffy, pink-white ones that showed up sharply > >> >> >against the deep blue-black sky. Higher than the clouds - > >> >> >immeasurably higher - flocks of transparent, shimmering beings arced > >> >> >across the sky, leaving long, streamerlike lines behind them.". > >> >> >... > >> >> >Then Shermer says "In any case, there is a reason they are called > >> >> >'near'-death experiences: the people who have then are not actually > >> >> >dead". Also he inquires how Alexander could have a memory of the > >> >> >experiences. > >> >> >. > >> >> >Finally, Dr. Shermer states "To me, this evidence is proof of > >> >> >hallucination, not heaven." > >> >> >. > >> >> >[his arguments on the whole are similar to those of Sam Harris]. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
