Why don't we think of exploitation as a matter of degree? When there is no choice, such as a child being forced into slave labor, that is true exploitation. But when there is a degree of choice, such as stripping or taking an underpaying job, that is not complete exploitation. There is a degree of exploitation in it though. So, Judy, i do understand your point.
--- vashtirama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > akasha, you'd be great in an upper-level feminist > studies seminar. > Groups of feminist sex workers have brought up most > if not all of > your points; so have lesbians who have their own > exotic dancer clubs, > publish x-rated magazines for the lesbian community, > informed by > lesbian feminist theory. > > --- In [email protected], akasha_108 > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In [email protected], Peter > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > It's interesting. the dark side of these > people who > > > > > try to pass themselves > > > > > off as the latest guru. That tendency (to > declare > > > > > oneself a teacher or guru > > > > > or "enlightened") I tend to associate with > nothing > > > > > more than a refined and > > > > > clever ego. I remember how disappointed I > was when I > > > > > found out that Charlie > > > > > Lutes had loved to frequent strip clubs. > > > > > > > > This opens a question for inquiry, and I apply > this to > > > > myself, too. Why would such behavior on > Charlie's part > > > > bother us so much? He liked to look at naked > women. > > > > Okay.... I have known other people in the past > that I > > > > respect and admire that did the same thing > from time > > > > to time. Why is it such a problem? Hmmmm. > > > > > > > Strip clubs exploit women as sex objects. > > > > So is your underlying premise that women are not > mature or smart > > enough to make such decisions for themselves? That > they need > society, > > particularly a matriarchial society, to make such > decisions for > them? > > > > Dancing naked, or semi naked, and talking to a lot > of men -- the far > > greater portion of their time spent -- may be > demeaning to some > woman. > > Others find it a great confidence booster. Some > say "if you feel > > comfortable about your looks and body dancing > naked in front of > > strangers, you feel pretty comfortable most > anywhere." > > > > Do you feel that modern fashion, make-up, fitness > centers, etc. also > > objective women? Or assist women into objectifying > themselves as sex > > objects? Or sexy? > > > > Is it that dancers how portray themselves as > sexual, while still > > athletic, charming and humorous, that is somehow > exploitive? > > Exploiting outdated stereotypes of what "proper > woman" should be? > > > > Is it the gymnastics done by some dancers and the > physical > > conditioning that most dancers undergo that is > exploitive? Should we > > shut down 24-hour Fitness and other gyms because > people are being > > exploited, deluded that a fit, hard and even hot > body is a path to > > happiness? > > > > If your premise is not the above, what is it that > is exploitive? Do > > you have some fantasies of imported sex workers > without green cards > > who can be exploited by threat of exposure? That > is a fantasy. In > most > > cities, if not all, dancers need to register with > the police and get > > their "card", whereby a through background check > is conducted. > > > > If your premise is not the above, I am still > struggling with the > > exploited thing? Exploited by making $400-1000 > dollars a night > instead > > of $7.15/hr at WalMart? Exploited because they can > pay for college > and > > have time to study and attaned classes (probably > 50% of dancers are > > students.) > > > > Is it the showing off their bodies that is > exploitive? Well, perhaps > > you don't frequent southern california beaches, or > swimming pools > and > > lakes most everywhere, but multitudes of girls on > the beach are > > willingly, gleefully and proudly exposing > themselves to about the > same > > degree as girls in strip clubs. Sometimes more -- > thong swimsuits > have > > evolved in ways you may not be aware. And most > malls and campuses -- > > short shorts and low cut, belly exposed tops -- > all pretty > > "displayful". Are these women all being exploited? > (Perhaps a case > can > > be made that they are -- they go to all that > trouble out of the > > goodness of their hearts, and are not compensated > like dancers are.) > > > > What do you feel about nudity, sex scenes, or > simply modern female > > atire shown abundantly and frequently on TV and > films? > > > > Do you think the body is shameful and should be > covered? Like MMY > > commenting on skinny-dippers at Humboldt 70 (many > future SIMS > leaders > > among them) that "the body is ugly and should be > covered.) > > > > Who is it that is exploiting the dancers? The club > owners? By giving > > the girls high pay (often), flexible hour > employment, strong > > protection should some customers get rude? > > > > The customers? Do you have visions of customers > treating dancers > > rudely? If they do, they are quickly kicked out of > most clubs. > > > > Do you feel that dancers are prostitutes? Every > try to "date" a > > dancer? Persist and you will get tossed out of > clubs quickly. (San > > Francisco clubs aside where most anything can be > done, negotiated > with > > the girl, on the premises.) > > > > Do you feel that there are other realms of society > that tend to > > objectify women? How should such be treated? > > > > Are you speaking from personal experience? That > is, when you attend > > strip clubs, do you find yourself objectifying > women more so than > > before? If so, do you think the problem might be > within you, and not > > in the dancers and the clubs? If you have not been > to a club in 20 > > years, or ever, do you think you have a strong > foundation for > judging, > > must less evaluating them? > > > > Do you feel that clubs are generally sleazy and > dirty venues? That > > could be the case in Maine. Before making a final > judgement, perhaps > > you should also visit modern clubs in most larger > cities. T ry > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
