Can you define what you mean by exploitation? Maybe its a semantic problem in my not being able to see the exploitive aspect of dancers. Is choice the key factor for you? So if a dancer has other options, then per your view, would there be no exploitation?
i have taken jobs where I had little choice. (no not as a male dancer). Was I therefore by definition "exploited"? I tried using google for definitions, but none of the definitions really fit dancers. Except some broad ones that could apply to most all jobs. --- In [email protected], Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why don't we think of exploitation as a matter of > degree? When there is no choice, such as a child being > forced into slave labor, that is true exploitation. > But when there is a degree of choice, such as > stripping or taking an underpaying job, that is not > complete exploitation. There is a degree of > exploitation in it though. So, Judy, i do understand > your point. > > --- vashtirama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > akasha, you'd be great in an upper-level feminist > > studies seminar. > > Groups of feminist sex workers have brought up most > > if not all of > > your points; so have lesbians who have their own > > exotic dancer clubs, > > publish x-rated magazines for the lesbian community, > > informed by > > lesbian feminist theory. > > > > --- In [email protected], akasha_108 > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], Peter > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It's interesting. the dark side of these > > people who > > > > > > try to pass themselves > > > > > > off as the latest guru. That tendency (to > > declare > > > > > > oneself a teacher or guru > > > > > > or "enlightened") I tend to associate with > > nothing > > > > > > more than a refined and > > > > > > clever ego. I remember how disappointed I > > was when I > > > > > > found out that Charlie > > > > > > Lutes had loved to frequent strip clubs. > > > > > > > > > > This opens a question for inquiry, and I apply > > this to > > > > > myself, too. Why would such behavior on > > Charlie's part > > > > > bother us so much? He liked to look at naked > > women. > > > > > Okay.... I have known other people in the past > > that I > > > > > respect and admire that did the same thing > > from time > > > > > to time. Why is it such a problem? Hmmmm. > > > > > > > > > > Strip clubs exploit women as sex objects. > > > > > > So is your underlying premise that women are not > > mature or smart > > > enough to make such decisions for themselves? That > > they need > > society, > > > particularly a matriarchial society, to make such > > decisions for > > them? > > > > > > Dancing naked, or semi naked, and talking to a lot > > of men -- the far > > > greater portion of their time spent -- may be > > demeaning to some > > woman. > > > Others find it a great confidence booster. Some > > say "if you feel > > > comfortable about your looks and body dancing > > naked in front of > > > strangers, you feel pretty comfortable most > > anywhere." > > > > > > Do you feel that modern fashion, make-up, fitness > > centers, etc. also > > > objective women? Or assist women into objectifying > > themselves as sex > > > objects? Or sexy? > > > > > > Is it that dancers how portray themselves as > > sexual, while still > > > athletic, charming and humorous, that is somehow > > exploitive? > > > Exploiting outdated stereotypes of what "proper > > woman" should be? > > > > > > Is it the gymnastics done by some dancers and the > > physical > > > conditioning that most dancers undergo that is > > exploitive? Should we > > > shut down 24-hour Fitness and other gyms because > > people are being > > > exploited, deluded that a fit, hard and even hot > > body is a path to > > > happiness? > > > > > > If your premise is not the above, what is it that > > is exploitive? Do > > > you have some fantasies of imported sex workers > > without green cards > > > who can be exploited by threat of exposure? That > > is a fantasy. In > > most > > > cities, if not all, dancers need to register with > > the police and get > > > their "card", whereby a through background check > > is conducted. > > > > > > If your premise is not the above, I am still > > struggling with the > > > exploited thing? Exploited by making $400-1000 > > dollars a night > > instead > > > of $7.15/hr at WalMart? Exploited because they can > > pay for college > > and > > > have time to study and attaned classes (probably > > 50% of dancers are > > > students.) > > > > > > Is it the showing off their bodies that is > > exploitive? Well, perhaps > > > you don't frequent southern california beaches, or > > swimming pools > > and > > > lakes most everywhere, but multitudes of girls on > > the beach are > > > willingly, gleefully and proudly exposing > > themselves to about the > > same > > > degree as girls in strip clubs. Sometimes more -- > > thong swimsuits > > have > > > evolved in ways you may not be aware. And most > > malls and campuses -- > > > short shorts and low cut, belly exposed tops -- > > all pretty > > > "displayful". Are these women all being exploited? > > (Perhaps a case > > can > > > be made that they are -- they go to all that > > trouble out of the > > > goodness of their hearts, and are not compensated > > like dancers are.) > > > > > > What do you feel about nudity, sex scenes, or > > simply modern female > > > atire shown abundantly and frequently on TV and > > films? > > > > > > Do you think the body is shameful and should be > > covered? Like MMY > > > commenting on skinny-dippers at Humboldt 70 (many > > future SIMS > > leaders > > > among them) that "the body is ugly and should be > > covered.) > > > > > > Who is it that is exploiting the dancers? The club > > owners? By giving > > > the girls high pay (often), flexible hour > > employment, strong > > > protection should some customers get rude? > > > > > > The customers? Do you have visions of customers > > treating dancers > > > rudely? If they do, they are quickly kicked out of > > most clubs. > > > > > > Do you feel that dancers are prostitutes? Every > > try to "date" a > > > dancer? Persist and you will get tossed out of > > clubs quickly. (San > > > Francisco clubs aside where most anything can be > > done, negotiated > > with > > > the girl, on the premises.) > > > > > > Do you feel that there are other realms of society > > that tend to > > > objectify women? How should such be treated? > > > > > > Are you speaking from personal experience? That > > is, when you attend > > > strip clubs, do you find yourself objectifying > > women more so than > > > before? If so, do you think the problem might be > > within you, and not > > > in the dancers and the clubs? If you have not been > > to a club in 20 > > > years, or ever, do you think you have a strong > > foundation for > > judging, > > > must less evaluating them? > > > > > > Do you feel that clubs are generally sleazy and > > dirty venues? That > > > could be the case in Maine. Before making a final > > judgement, perhaps > > > you should also visit modern clubs in most larger > > cities. T ry > > > === message truncated === > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' 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