--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > I believe it is unproductive to make personal attacks
> 
> But only when *I* do it, apparently.  

No, that is not correct. Its strange that you feel so. I have in the
past 3 days stood up twice now when I felt Cliff was over the top.
With regards to Barry, I have stood up to what I felt were
exagerations and misconstuctions a number of times. Not recently. 
Perhaps because I read the first sentences of his posts and if they
are about you, I just skip them. As I do with most of yours.

> You've spent
> many hundreds of words now instructing me 

Its odd you actually feel this is "instruction". I have said here is
what I have found is useful in my own experience when "being dumped
on", take it or leave it. I am trying to be helpful, and am not 
criticizing. Sorry you take it in other ways. 

And to be frank, I have not shared my experiences (aka "given you
instructions" -- per your word/view) until today I believe. 

And I am not the FFL police. When I see something over the top, and I
have time, and am up to it, I comment. Gender has nothing to do with it. 
 
> <snip>
> > I pointed out before that a number of folks here can't
> > seem to see the fights between me and Barry in anything
> > other than a "romantic" framework--either as a couple
> > who fight like cats and dogs and then fall into each
> > other's arms, or as parties to a bad marriage who can't
> > let go. That's part of what I'm talking about.
> > 
> > ****************
> > Akasha:
> > 
> > Ok. That is a good point. That Tracy Hepburn crap is stereotyping 
> > you (and him to a degree). It is making a gender distinction where 
> > it is not relevant. If I bicker with Barry, I don't think people 
> > would make the same "jokes". 
> 
> Exactly.  And if another man were fighting with
> Barry, I doubt that *only* the other guy would be
> chastised.  Either neither of them would be, or
> both of them would be.

Well, most people tune out. There are lots of loud debates going on on
the list from time to time. And often only the two debaters are
reading the stuff. People do not comment because most are just
skipping over the posts. Or the people who might ocaisionally be
reading don't want to throw fuel on the fire -- at least thats how I
feel sometimes.

> > I don't see psychobabble. Can you be more specific?
> 
> "Objectification," for one.  You really should have
> a look at the article Tazarmfume linked to:

I am. I have some thoughts on it.  
> http://www.sexuality.org/authors/steinberg/cn05.html

If you think I or others are using the term objectification
incorrectly, please share your thoughts. I have found the term, and my
thinking about it, useful.  
 

> > Here is a slightly more blunt take on it. No one minds if a
> > SUBSTANTIVE point is corrected. (they do get tired of large numbers
> > of, in their view, inconsequential ones being corrected) But most of
> > all, most people are quite turned off by name calling. So if you 
> > wish to continue to call Barry names, and then justify it at 
> > length, people get irritated. In their irritation, they can get a 
> > bit over the top. The result is what you feel as being dumped on.
 
> Why aren't you saying this to Barry?  *That's* my
> point, and you keep tiptoeing past it. Barry's
> doing just as much if not more of the name-calling,
> and most of the time he starts it.

I have said it to many times on the list over the years. I have said
it to Cliff twice in three days. I said it in a general response to
anon two days ago(I believe). I said it in a gereral posting about 5
days ago. I sometimes  try to make the point to the whole list, not
focussing one one person. Because when you do that, well, you see what
happens. They feel they are being picked on.

> I'm not asking you to do this, but I'm pretty sure
> that if you went back over our exchanges here--
> actually if you went back even further and started
> with what Barry said about me before I got here--you
> would have a rather different outlook on the situation.

I doubt it. I have no recollection of anything Barry said about you
before coming to the list, or little, even after. If you asked me to
quote two things he has said about you, I would be stumped. The point
you may be missing about me, and I think that it applies to most, is
we don't give a rats ass about what Barry thinks about you. Me thinks
you place way to much importance on his role as an opinion maker --
particularly  regarding slurs. 
 
> Again, I think you and others have been focusing on
> what I say to and about Barry rather than what Barry
> says to and about me.  

My sense is you say more about him. Barry appears to hold his tongue
more. I may be wrong. Maybe I just skip over Barry more.

> And I think it's because my
> behavior--standing up for myself and fighting back,
> giving as good as I get--is not what you expect, or
> are used to seeing, from a woman.  

haha. You don't know me or my background. Believe me Judy, you are a
puppy dog compared to many women I have worked with. 

It doesn't fit
> the pattern, so it stands out.

What pattern You don't know my life experince and expectations of
women or men.
 
> Again, this isn't *sexism*.  It's just a deeply
> embedded perspective that's so pervasive you aren't
> aware of it.

Glad you are omnicient and know my experience, pattern recognition
matrices and values better than I do. :) I guess those siddhis really
do work.






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