--- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "Irmeli Mattsson" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Irmeli Mattsson" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > <snip> > > > > If you see a flower, who is seeing the flower? That was > > > > basically my question. Your answer would probably be that in > > > > your case the Universal Self is seeing the flower, because you > > > > are enlightened. But I understand also the Universal Self to be > > > > a subject, "I", who sees the flower. > > > > > > My (purely intellectual) understanding is that in > > > Unity consciousness, there is no distinction between > > > the flower, the process of seeing the flower, and > > > that which sees the flower. > > > > > > > **** > > The way you express Unity consciousness could be also understood > > this way: In unity consciousness the differentiation between the > > flower, the process of seeing the flower and that which sees the > > flower is not there and possible. > > > > What a mess. That is the reality of a new born baby. > > In a brahmin endowed with learning and humility, in > a cow, in an elephant, in a dog and even in one who > has lost his caste, the enlightened perceive the same. > > Bhagavad-Gita, V:18 > > MMY comments, in part: > > "The mind of the realized man is fully infused with > the state of Being--the oneness of life--and such a mind > naturally has oneness of vision irrespective of what it > sees. The apparent distinctions of relative existence > fail to create division in its view. > > "This does not mean that such a man fails to see a cow > or is unable to distinguish it from a dog. Certainly he > sees a cow as a cow and a dog as a dog, but the form of > the cow and the form of the dog fail to blind him to the > oneness of the Self, which is the same in both. Although > he sees a cow and a dog, his Self is established in the > Being of the cow and the Being of the dog, which is his > own Being. The Lord stresses that the enlightened man, > while beholding and acting in the whole of diversified > creation, does not fall from his steadfast Unity of life, > with which his mind is saturated and which remains > indelibly infused into his vision." > > In other words, the enlightened person (presumably > in Unity) sees both distinction and nondistinction, > but the Unity of the person's state extends even to > the distinction between distinction and nondistinction, > i.e., distinction and nondistinction are not different. > > > I would describe Unity consciousness like this: In Unity > > consciousness it is seen and felt that the one who sees, the > > process of seeing and the seen are not independent and separate > > processes or entities from each other. > > Nor is that which sees and feels that they are not > independent and separate from the seeing and feeling > thereof. Nor is that which sees and feels that it > is not independent and separate from the seeing and > feeling that they are not independent and separate... > > In other words, it's an infinite regress. > > But that's what Self-reference looks like under the > influence of the "mistake of the intellect," and why > Unity consciousness cannot be accurately described > in terms that make sense to the intellect. The more > closely you analyze the words used in the description > (any description), the more confusing and paradoxical > they become. > > However, it can be useful to confront that confusion, > because the more the intellect has to deal with its > inadequacy to penetrate the mystery, the closer it is > brought to the point where it is going to have to give > up entirely (but also the more strenuously it fights > giving up). > **** My opinion: A concept that you cannot define shouldn't be used at all untill you can define it.
The quote from Bhagavad Gita is fine: In a brahmin endowed with learning and humility, in a cow, in an elephant, in a dog and even in one who has lost his caste, the enlightened perceive the same. Bhagavad-Gita, V:18 It describes something quite different than the statement: "In Unity consciousness, there is no distinction between the flower, the process of seeing the flower, and that which sees the flower." The former states only that one sees the same Self in all humans and animals. The Self as subject seeing the Self as object. But it doesn't say that the body of the cow is not seen as distinct of the seer's body. And in that way the Bhagavad-Gita description is a good one. The one I understand to correspond to enlightened reality. The acid test is how this realization gets translated to one's lived reality. In MMY:s case not too well. He claims he doesn't cater for the poor. Who are the poor, who are distinct from himself. Why is he collecting big property from more distant expressions of himself to the very local physical entities as his family and his aging individual person. His behaviour confirms, if we anticipate him to live in Unity consciousness, that it means just seeing the same Self everywhere. It doesn't mean dissolution of the subjective, individual self. The individual subjective self just becomes fused in a subtle level with the perception of Unity. Only gradually and slowly this Unity awareness starts to transform the individual subjective self for a more advanced one. And in people who have Unity awareness this transformation obeys the same laws as in others. Only if you can appreciate the transformation process in the individual self, the Unity experience significantly enhances it. Otherwise not. Irmeli Irmeli ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
