On 8/6/2014 7:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
>
What!? I think you are supposed to copy and paste something into the
reply text box BEFORE you press Send, Barry. Go figure.
>
*From:* salyavin808 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
Buck's off his anti-cult-mentality meds again.
For most people on the planet, the issue is not "proving" that a bunch
of people bouncing on their butts can lower crime, affect the weather,
and create world peace, but the fact that some people are so out of it
that they actually believed it could in the first place. That degree
of gullibility is what needs to be researched, not the "ME."
I wonder if hardcore TM is the religion with the smallest set of
believers on Earth?
I would suggest that TM is more like "the religion that claims it's
not a religion with the smallest set of believers on Earth." :-)
How many really believe that a field effect in consciousness can lower
crime etc, even with no evidence? Must be in the few thousands at
most. Hell, I know a TM governor in the UK who doesn't believe it.
Who would *admit* to believing it, outside of a closed TM-only
environment? The "TM governor" you speak of might claim to believe it
while talking with other members of the religion/cult, just so as to
not make waves, but be honest about not believing it when talking to
more rational people such as yourself.
I was discussing John Hagelin with a physicist I know the other day, I
explained about how he thinks prayers can prevent Earthquakes and tea
leaves can predict the future and that it's all to do with quantum
super-position. My friend wondered why he hasn't been detained under
the mental health act.
Many of us have wondered this. :-)
In case Buck starts crying about me being anti-science here, I would
say that it's JH who is abusing the known principles of science and
particularly those that he got his PHD in, and that this is just the
sort of drivel that keeps people from taking the ME seriously. Not
that it's any magnitude of sanity higher than yagya's of course...
Exactly. In a way, this is a parallel to current discussions of the
Israeli-Gaza conflict. Criticize the policies and the actions of the
State Of Israel and the Zionist cultists go crazy and start claiming
that anyone doing so is an "anti-semite" and advocating the
destruction of Judaism. On the other hand, the rabbi whose essay I
posted the other day nailed what's really happening -- the current
State Of Israel is what is destroying Judaism. By setting themselves
and their greed and bloodlust up as "what Jews are all about," they
are making it difficult even for *other Jews* to agree with them.
Similarly, by abusing science and pretending that his cult nonsense
constitutes science, John Hagelin is doing more to destroy TM and be
"anti-science" than anyone else.
...but it is easily testable. So go to it! Again...
That's the bottom line that no one here is really responding to. The
TM organization has *more than enough* money to gather as large a
group of butt-bouncers as they think are necessary to create
measurable effects. They've had the money to do this for decades. But
they don't do it. Looks to me as if none of *them* really believe in
the "ME" either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* "dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife]"
<FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
*To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 6, 2014 1:04 PM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Re: Science and the Meissner Effect of
Consciousness as Field
Yes quite evidently you and the other anti-meditation anti-science
folks here are afraid of where the data is going. Your asserting no
data therefore no replication and therefore it can't be talked about
or researched. Asserting that it does not exist defies reality and
scientific process itself of data, observation, hypothesis and testing
. Lawson is looking at how to replicate given the practical
constraints of such a project given the data. You completely
miss-interpret to your own vile ends. You evidently don't want
anything to happen less it disturb your anti-meditation and
anti-spiritual grumblings. You contend the research can't be
replicated and shouldn't be, well talk about subterfuge and
anti-science anti-intellectualism. Next we'll hear from you that there
never was such a thing as darshan where obviously there is and then
you'll say it is not worth trying to look at for fear of what we might
find. Did you just renew your membership down at the local
conservative Anglican Church or something that you come on so
regressive like you do?
-Buck in the Dome
Thanks LEnglish5 very much for this more even-handed review of what is
current. It is refreshing in the face of all the anti-science and
allergy that so many have to TM and spirituality here on this board. -Buck
What are you talking about Buck? Lawson used to be the hard core
defender of ME research, it's only very recently he's come round to
the viewpoint I've held all along, that ME research doesn't show what
is claimed for it. So why are you calling me "anti-science"?
Criticismis science, that's how it works. Someone has an idea, they
collect evidence and publish it. The ME research doesn't show anything
beyond statistical manipulation, it sure as hell didn't show a huge
decrease in crime. So the ball is back in the court of the people who
claim its efficacy to prove it was a real effect.
Your problem is that you get all sensitive when someone criticises a
pet theory of yours when it's all part of the scientific process. If
the ME stands up someone will find a way of demonstrating it. It might
help if they had an explanation for how it might work in the first
place. Instead all they have is a bunch of wishy-washy new age terms
explained in the context of other wishy-washy new age terms. So why
should anyone take it seriously and go to the expense of testing it
when, as Lawson points out, there appears to be no evidence to try and
replicate?
LEnglish5 writes:
It may have been demonstrated to the satisfaction of true believers,
but not to the satisfaction of skeptics.
The problem with the ME research is that it is essentially not
replicatable on a large-scale. No two cities or groups of cities are
really alike, and even using the same city over and over again for a
study has many issues.
Fred Travis' thesis research on interpersonal EEG coherence (the ME
between two people) would be a better route to go, but he was forced
to use averages of EEG statistics over a period of many seconds, and
it turns out that there is a ceiling effect on that specific measure
which makes it unlikely to find the effect consistently.
So... what to do?
As I pointed out before, there's a more sophisticated way of analyzing
global EEG called "EEG microstates," where the average electrical
activation of the brain can be examined in tiny slices of time, down
to as low as 2-10 milliseconds per slice. That is easily 400x the
resolution that Fred used in his original study.
The people in charge of the TM organization are well aware of how the
ME research is viewed by most non-believers, but there's been no way
to satisfy genuine concerns like independent replication until now.
The DC experiment not only cost the TM organization several million to
conduct, but it required coordinating the lives of 4,000 Sidhas. This
is NOT something that can ever be replicated on a regular basis, no
matter what kind of resources you have and you can't expect the
average skeptical scientist to arrange to do such research, either.
When the upcoming EEG microstate research on TM is published, if it
turns out that there is a definite pattern associated with pure
consciousness, it may be possible to redo Fred Travis' original
research with as many as 400x the number of data points in a given TM
session. I don't know offhand, how much more sensitive this would make
a specific study, but I'm pretty sure it is a LOT more sensitive...
...tried just now to plug various values into online statistical
calculators, and it looks like having 400x as many data points roughly
makes a given simple experiment 400x as sensitive (sorta -there might
be a square-root in there, but it looks like it is a lot more than 20x
as sensitive so not sure)...
John Hagelin obviously realizes the points above. He was giving the
standard party line to me earlier this year about how the research
into the ME is reliable, etc., but when I started to point out that
there would be potentially 400x as many data points as was available
in Fred Travis' experiments and that this meant fully independent
skeptics could conduct their own very cheap experiments, he kinda got
excited and interrupted me about halfway through my spiel, saying he
would talk to Fred Travis about it.
Lawson
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
Maharishi's technologies for creating peace was demonstrated again and
again in the 70'ies and 80'ies. No need for any more demonstrations.
It is well documented and it's now up to responsible leaders in the
world to implement these technologies at a fraction of the costs of
waging wars.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <fleetwood_macncheese@...> wrote :
I agree. I am a little surprised that the TMO hasn't done this, as a
continuation of Maharishi's initiatives. Of course, there are enough
hot spots that it could be an issue to fund all of them. Maharishi
always wanted countries to recognize the value of his programs on
their own, but it is something very tough to do, while fighting a war.
Jordan may be safe enough, and close enough, and friendly enough, for
a group of Sidhas, though I can't think of anyplace else. I seem to
recall this was done, at least once before in possibly Lebanon?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
You are exaggerating as usual. There is no point in putting people in
harm's way, which would be grossly irresponsible. That was never the
idea. The Maharishi effect doesn't mean that all violence ceases
immediately or that you could meditate as a group in the middle of a
battlefield and come out unscathed.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote :
Oh no! Let 'em put up or shut up! Let 'em go to where the rockets are
flying and do so at their own expense. If it really works the way they
claim, they will be in no danger.
*From:* feste37 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
*To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 5, 2014 10:53 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] For The Turq and his Superiors
I think they should try it. Nothing else is working. It's just the
usual, endless round of violence. The TM group wouldn't have to go
into the most dangerous areas. Just being close would probably do it.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote :
Thank you Nabby for posting this bold article.
Here is the comment I posted on the site - let's see if they have the
balls to allow it to be posted:
As a former practitioner of transcendental meditation, I know that you
are a shill for the TM Movement. You are also not giving full
information in your article. IDT refers to the TM Sidhi program, the
one that purports to enable people to levitate. In no way shape or
form is this nonsense scientifically validated.
But let's give you the benefit of the doubt - you want to prove this
voodoo technology works then I challenge you to personally lead a
group into the most dangerous and violent sections of Israel and the
Gaza strip.
Let the TM Movement pay every penny of the expense in supporting such
a group rather than begging the rest of the world to financially
support you (which is your actual intent in suggesting such a group)
and see how long you last. I do suggest you make sure to give the
Israeli authorities the names of your next of kin, I expect they will
need them.
*From:* nablusoss1008 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
*To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 5, 2014 9:30 AM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] For The Turq and his Superiors
_An Outsider's View of How to Calm Middle East-Gaza Tension _
_http://www.newspronto.com/opinion/4376-an-outsider-s-view-of-how-to-calm-middle-east-gaza-tension_
