--- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > < snipping what came before > > > > > I think it can be understood using the concept of > > dharma. Within the context of waking state there is a > > foundational dharma of individual responsibility > > because there is so clearly a phenomenological "I" > > that is "me". One engages in spiritual practices to > > "integrate being" etc., etc.. Then "something happens" > > and the Self wakes-up to what it has already been. Now > > the dharma has shifted because there is no "I" present > > and the perspectiveless perspective is quite different > > from the perspective of "I" in waking state. > > Everything just happens and it is self-evident that it > > has always occured this way. > > Since we're talking about experiences that we > have had but (to be honest) none of us fully > understand, I'll take a moment to quibble with > the traditional concept of "no I" after reali- > zation. I've always had a little trouble with > this concept, because the concept of the ego/I > somehow "going away" after realization doesn't > quite map to my own experiences. > > The concept of the ego/I "going away" or being > somehow "replaced" by Self/I implies that it's > a subtractive process. For me, realization has > always been more of an additive process. Nothing > of life before realization ever went away; only > new realizations were added. > > So while I appreciate your description, Peter, > I would phrase it more in terms of which "I" > seems to be "predominant." The ego/I is still > present, which is a good thing -- it would be > somewhat difficult to deal with things like taxes > and traffic jams and the occasional mugger if it > had completely "gone away." But it's not the > *predominant* "I." That is Self, which is always > present and, as you say, has *always* been present, > although not always appreciated. > > Anybody else identify with this? I ask because > some on this forum have characterized those of us > who have had such experiences and talk about them > openly here as somehow presenting ourselves as > authorities on or representatives of enlighten- > ment. I don't think of myself that way. I don't > even use the word 'enlightenment' any more; it's > a bad word, colored by too many meanings in too > many contexts. I don't know what the fuck I am, > and don't worry about it overmuch. But it is > fun sometimes to hear other people's views on > similar experiences. >
**** I can easily relate to your account. I perceive things rather similarly and don't like the word enlightenment for the reasons you explain. But I understand that people want to find expressions for their inner states and stages and to the inner transformations they go through. We are actually participating on this forum on the work to find proper expressions we can communicate with each other in a way that the other understands as accurately as possible what we mean. My perception is that no earlier established inner structure vanishes. But the "I" evolves and with this evolving what is ultimate to the self changes. When the ego is ultimate, it is embedded in the "I", identified as the "I". When this stage is transcended, the ego does not go away. It is seen clearly now, and it becomes a tool for the mind to work with. And when the ego is seen and used as a tool, usually then also its excesses are under control and it can be used to benefit the bigger whole also. My guess is that people tend to describe the state immediately after this transition as a "no I" state. Irmeli ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop slavery. http://us.click.yahoo.com/WpTY2A/izNLAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
