---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
No, I don't "accept things at face value." I probably think as much about them as you do, except it's a different kind of thinking, that incorporates, to the best of my knowledge and understanding, the spiritual elements in life, which you appear to dismiss because they cannot be measured in any way that science accepts. Nope, you're still painting "science" as though it's some sort of spoilsport/bogeyman rather than an attempt to construct theories to explain data. In this case we're talking about the standards of evidence that we accept to support our ideas. I read a David Icke book once and his gold standard was to see whether anyone else in his circle of astoundingly deluded true believers - not his choice of words - believed, or thought they had experienced, the same thing. I'm all for peer review but the opinion of some channeler he met at Stonehenge doesn't carry the same weight as someone capable of judging the likelihood of a theory against what we can demonstrate we know in that area, or connected areas. YMMV and probably does. In the case of angels you have to ask about circumstances of experience, context of belief system of the experiencer and set that against how well it fits in with the known laws of physics and how all known life forms function. Now, it could just be that you've discovered something that has evaded the best minds for generations but how likely is that? A much more likely explanation might be that you misinterpreted some confused sense data when you were meditating, maybe you fell asleep, maybe the beliefs you hold make you interpret things the wrong way and reinforce themselves. All this is well known to occur in psychology and the folkloric beliefs that spring up to explain them are fascinating. For example, take that classic character from English folklore, The Old Hag. Many people have witnessed themselves waking up in the middle of the night and find they are incapable of moving and experience a feeling of dread and terror that there is someone else in the room. Scary huh? And it isn't just Olde England that this happens in, it occurs all over the world under different names. I suspect the alien abduction mythos is fueled by such an apparition. But how to explain it? If you take it at face value it suggests there is some hideous creature that can invade your house, obviously something mystical as it comes and goes whenever it likes. A goblin maybe. If you know a little about Sleep Paralysis you might come to a different conclusion. SP can occur anytime and involves the part of the brain that disconnects your body when you are asleep so you don't physically act out your dreams. In these cases you wake up unable to move. The fear and terrifying visions then experienced are down to adrenalin. This accelerates thoughts and alters the way the brain processes information giving more weight to shapes and movement, this is a survival characteristic that evolved to maximise our chances of getting away from predators by seeing everything that moves as a threat, with no immediate and definite focus it runs riot causing all sorts of mental chaos. Now we know the answer to the mystery of The Old Hag it's up to the individual to decide whether science has spoiled the story or not. To me it's much more interesting because it shows how easily we can mistake something unknown for something else even more unknown. In this case it was good data gathering and understanding of psychological systems that revealed it for what it was. It will be a similar story for most paranormal phenomena involving entities, without knowing more about your case I couldn't offer anything definitive - unless I have already without knowing. The lesson to take away is that experiencing something doesn't mean we know what is going on however realistic or self explanatory it seems, and the belief systems we create to explain mysteries need more than mere confirmation from fellow travellers. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : What I am interested in is the relationship between the visible and the invisible worlds -- how they interact. I doubt whether that would mean anything to you, but I find it fascinating. Since science does not acknowledge an invisible world, I doubt whether it can be of any help. I am talking about the interactions between humans and all the other beings that inhabit this universe in realms we do not see. Angels act at a distance all the time. Of course, as a fan of science you will think such a statement meaningless or absurd, but I encourage you to keep an open mind. The impression I have at the moment is that your mind is more closed than most. Closed mind eh? Ok, luckily for us I've got a mind open enough to actually try and engage with the accusation rather than simply dismissing it. There's a belief round here that "science" is some sort of dogmatic statement about reality that refuses to consider alternative ideas and viewpoints. This is wildly in error but I see how you arrived at it, the trouble is you are joining the debate about what is and what isn't at a point when people who study psychology and parapsychology already have a rather good idea about what constitutes a reasonable explanation for things like angels. And it isn't invisible worlds. You may continue to believe in them if you wish but with no evidence other than "feelings" there's no reason for anybody else to. I think it's a problem of education that so many people these days are so ignorant of how science works. Ignorant isn't an insult BTW, it just means you don't know something. In order for me to persuade you there is merit in challenging beliefs and trying to work out what something means rather than taking it at face value I'd have to go through grade school education about physics, biology and chemistry and all the stuff that explains how the stuff of the universe actually works and extrapolate from that the likelihoods of their being angels and unicorns farting rainbows. It isn't narrow minded to dismiss something if it contradicts everything else you know, and this is exactly what scientists do not do! I didn't just dismiss Marshy when he said that consciousness is the unified field, I sat up because it isn't part of any mainstream thinking and asked for a further explanation. And I didn't get one. I read Marshy's books and sat through interminable lectures to no avail, if they know something deep about reality they sure aren't letting on what it actually is in a way it can be understood. The whole belief is explained only in wishy-washy terms in reference to other wishy-washy terms. This isn't the way physics works ad it's why nobody takes John Hagelin seriously. He has no argument to offer them that they can scrutinize. You'd think he would after all these decades. Not only that I've researched the whole story of unification and found that it was abandoned in the 70's by physicists because the only experiment anyone could think of to test it ended up disproving it. Even in Einstein's day the UF theory had been abandoned in favour of quantum theory but scientists (proper ones) never intended consciousness as an explanation in the first place! That's an entirely religious idea. That was a few years of work for me. Closed minded? I think not. And while you may have an open mind I don't think it's a healthy one, like a lot of people round here you accept things at face value and lack any way of challenging, or maybe any desire to challenge. That's what science really is, the desire to work out what is actually out there in the world independent of what we think of it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : You misread me. I said nothing against science. I love the fruits of it, as you put it. But some things lie beyond the scope of science to measure or understand. If it exists it can be measured, or in what way can it be said to be existing? I find it interesting that you seem to think that only scientists can be curious. Hmmm, there's seems to be some sort of inability to read posts thoroughly before replying because I never said anything of the sort. It was you who said you didn't care whether the ME could be measured or not, and that sort of mystery is what gets me interested. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : Salyavin's god, Science, is a very poor god indeed. Oh I don't know, try removing the fruits of science from your life and see how far you'd get. What would you be happy not knowing? Maybe you have no curiousity and aren't aware that your life would return to dark-age misery very quickly. No computers for a start. No decent biology. Medicine. Astronomy. Psychology. It doesn't appeal to me....But it's not a god, it's a way of working out what is from what isn't. God's are usually infallable whereas science is a learning process. I have no doubt that TM creates "action at a distance" because I have experienced it myself on a number of occasions. But how do you know that what you are experiencing really is "action at a distance" and not some form of kiddology or psycho-social effect? I have no interest in whether science is able to measure it or not. Ah, well there you are. I'm ultra curious about everything. If someone is meditating in my house, it creates a calming effect. Just a few months ago, I had a friend here, and unbeknownst to me she was meditating in another room. I was noting the unusual feeling of calm I was experiencing, and then, some minutes later, discovered that she had been meditating. I trust my own experience and do not have to look to science to confirm or deny it. If only the plural of anecdote was data! Science can do great things but it is not the be-all and end-all. It'd be a mightily poor world without it. Just like it was before we developed it actually, when people had to pray for everything and take their chances when they prayers didn't work. We had a long, slow craw away from the age of superstition and the fascinating thing for me is that the internet has become a way of taking us back there with it's endless pages of superstitious ignorance masquerading as valid theory. One thing is certain, science is the best way we have of telling us when we are kidding ourselves. Doesn't it interest you that everyone knows it's humanity's gold standard for assessing knowledge which is why everyone has to have a "scientifically valid" theory these days, usually quantum justifications for this and that nonsense, unified fields etc. If it's so ineffective why do they bother? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <steve.sundur@...> wrote : Salyavin, I find it rather humorous that you appear to consider yourself a final authority on what science can or cannot prove. Certainly it's a fair statement to say, "we don't have any scientific basis to make such and such a statement", but some of us are not afraid to think a little outside that box, and perhaps more importantly not discount what our experiences may be, "outside that box" With regard to brain waves affecting the environment, it appears to me you are spinning the discussion, and my comments to arrive a pre-arranged conclusion you are comfortable with. Perhaps you don't buy into the notion that our thoughts can affect our environment, or that a person transcending does not have any effect that expands out. I don't know. I am speculating that it does. I can't say to what extent, and I am not defending the Maharishi Effect or saying that it works. But I remain open to that possibility. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <awoelflebater@...> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <steve.sundur@...> wrote : Good nuance. Good comparison. A Caliphate? So the TMO is a social system grounded in ancient literature? Yep, that's a fine comparison. I maintain that brain waves are real and affect one's environment. No one would argue that brain waves are real, but affecting the environment? Not even the TMO is claiming that. Of course they are. No they aren't! They are claiming that they affect the fundamental level of nature not brainwaves, it's their "unified field technology" that they are claiming is affecting your brain, not other people's thoughts. If the brain waves of TM'ers are supposedly more coherent and life supporting (I have doubts about that) then the MMY effect comes (supposedly) into play and effects what others think and do. That is "the environment". We can measure electrical activity in brains easily but you have to attach some sensitive electrodes directly to the scalp to do it. These signals are in the brain, if they could travel outside it would be easy to measure them because we already know the frequencies. All waves, all activity is energy. All energy has force and it could be measured if we had the tools. As long as there is energy there is movement. If radio waves and all sorts of micro waves can be emitted and sent long or short distances through the atmosphere then brain waves are also doing the same thing. Even the beating of ones heart has some ability to be heard and felt outside of the body. I can't help you with your scientific illiteracy. But as your heart can be heard outside of your body a lot easier than your brainwaves can then maybe the Marshy Effect is caused by the slowing down of people's hearts being heard across warzones. Hmm, yes. That makes sense. But we can't and that isn't what they are claiming, the Marshy Effect is supposed to work on some sort of "unified field" that connects all things via our consciousness. Convenient that it seems to be an unmeasurable phenomena, or am I unreasonable in expecting a physical basis to claims for the physical world? Having an effect on a unified field doesn't mean the force, the energy of the brain waves are not somehow hitting outer atmosphere ie being felt outside of the brain and body. Sheesh. Sheesh what? This sentence makes no sense. But it interests me that the TMO publicity machine seems to have had it's way in how it relies on people's ignorance of physics history and understanding of forces and effects. It's their oldest method of working, use a few vaguely familiar sciencey-sounding phrases and use them to piggyback their own beliefs and hope you won't be able to tell the difference. Where we go beyond that, I don't know. I maintain that any body or an object with mass emits waves of some kind. Why on Earth would you want to maintain that? Because he is right, they do. LOL Where we go beyond that, I don't know. And yes, I believe celestial objects fall in to this somewhere. We are free to believe what we like. The TMO are trying to make money by claiming an actual physical effect. Still, I guess your response answers my question about who the letter was aimed at.... You're such a curmudgeon. Why? Someone has to stand up for reality. People like Steve who don't have a grounding in science are the intended recipients of this stuff. They'll bleed him dry if they get the chance. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mdixon.6569@...> wrote : All you have to do is read the comments at the bottom of the Youtube video to see what people think of it.A sane person would distance themselves from such *nonsense*. I wouldn't be caught dead endorsing yogic flying and the TMO to create world peace. Might pull for it secretly though, kind of like a Muslim secretly pulling for a Caliphate. From: salyavin808 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2015 11:34 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Scientific Solution to Terrorism and War Deaths: TM found to reduce them by 70%! Any idea why they are bothering with this? It doesn't even mention yogic flying so if anyone takes it at face value and does some research, they'll instantly find this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyXAB5L3EIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyXAB5L3EIQ And that will be that. Anyone looking still further might wonder why we haven't done it anyway if it works. And then we can say; we have been doing it. And yagyas too! So why doesn't it work? because it just doesn't. There is no action at a distance. None of the research goes anywhere proving that it does. The crime rate in Washington didn't fall any further than it randomly fluctuates over the year anyway, even the editors of the journal that one was published in weren't impressed. And the Lebanon study was even more pointless, does anyone look back at that time and wonder why there was a few fewer deaths than expected when there people meditating in Jerusalem? Of course not, because there wasn't. You can't say that more people would have died if we weren't meditating, how are you going to prove it? There are lies, there are damn lies and there are statistics If this amazing "technology" caused world peace we'd already have it, aren't there 250,000 meditators in South America now? The crime rate in Washington would have dropped to nothing if yogic flying worked. The war in Lebanon would have stopped. Even if it's as good as the claimed unmeasurable effects, how would that help in Syria? 10% fewer beheadings than last month? Wouldn't that interfere with Saudi Arabian justice a bit? They won't like that. Let's face it, it's a nice idea - one of the best, but if they can't even explain how it might work by any known mechanism let alone demonstrate that it does it's dead in the water. Perhaps that's why this advert is heavy on promises and light on explanation? Fess up guys, if it worked the amount of meditators, yagyas and pundits all over the world would have had us all dancing in the streets by now, but we appear to be stuck with having to come up with actual solutions for problems rather than hoping some stirrings of bliss in some mythical unified field will magically save the world. I convert for evidence, but I aint ever seen none for magic, nor even had it explained how it might work. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dickmays@...> wrote : Published scientific studies show TM and advanced practices reduce war deaths and terrorism by more than 70%. (See the journals and statistics below in the middle column.) http://www.gusp.org/pdf/LetterToWorldLeaders.pdf http://www.gusp.org/pdf/LetterToWorldLeaders.pdf
