--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Dec 14, 2005, at 8:36 PM, anonymousff wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > To me, the latter is far more effective and inviting. And it 
doesn't
> > > have heavy-handedness of cultish procliamations "this is the 
way it
> > > is, period. This interprestation of reality is the only valid 
one.
> > > period. And it is known by means way beyond you. So just take 
it
> > > without questioning."
> > 
> > One of the reasons an enlightened being will typically not talk 
about  
> > enlightenment or even their own enlightenment is because this 
is,  
> > except for some generalities, of little help in awakening the 
true  
> > state of enlightenment in others. In other words, it's a very  
> > inefficient way to introduce that state (either temporarily or  
> > permanently) in students.
> > 
> > It's interesting the culture that has developed in the west from 
the  
> > satsangs of Ramana, Nisargadatta and Papaji. It's nothing like 
the  
> > sadhanas that lead them to the non-dual state in the first 
place.  
> > Ramana was a devotee of Kali who had numerous non-dual sadhanas. 
But  
> > he did not teach that to his student (that I am aware of). And  
> > Nisargadatta had a Nath guru who undoubtedly taught him some 
great  
> > teaching which lead to his ripening and liberation. But he also 
would  
> > not even talk of these teachings in any detail. They gave no 
methods  
> > for the masses that flocked to them like the ones they 
themselves  
> > used. But laughingly, those who emulate their examples merely 
parody  
> > there darshans as if that will do it. It would be laughable if 
it  
> > wasn't so sad. Even Papaji said none of his students received 
his  
> > final teaching--the final stroke. They were just leeches. But 
those  
> > who tasted--glimpsed--the View of non-duality abruptly claimed 
it as  
> > their own. And then they declared satsangs of their own. And 
they  
> > declared themselves enlightened on their own...even after people 
like  
> > Papaji told them, no, sorry.
> > 
> > It's like the old saying 'those who know, don't say; those who 
say,  
> > don't know.'
> > 
> > Worth remembering.
> >
> 
> The self-proclamation part has always struck me as odd. Linked to 
the
> absolutist interpretations of what IT IS. As if there is some
> insecurity. THIS has to be IT. And odd that there are strong 
mandates
> of how IT can be spoken of. And how IT cannot. And what one can
> understand and what one cannot. 
> 
> And if anyone is experiencing Effulgence, a seemingly endless flow 
of
> liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is dumb), constant
> wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, loss of
> possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and things), compassion 
that
> seems to be rooted at the core of everything, a limitless sense of
> wonder -- and irony, a not so worried view of "pending disasters", 
a
> not so impressed view of pending sucesses, then wonderful. Why not
> speak of these things. Why speak in nebulous labels 
of "liberation, 
> awakening, and enlightenment"? Whose liberation, whose awakening? 
So
> many paths, so many traditions make so many distinctions. Lots of
> trail markers on this hike. Why be so anxious to claim the 
pinnacle. 
> Why not just claim, if claims are needed,  "I am hiking, and its 
fun".
> (oops, sorry "the body is hiking" <smirk>
> 
> 
> (And I mean experience not in the sense of "I see the flower" and 
this
> "I experience it", but in the sense of "Consciousness Groking", 
> 
> And the process of self-proclamation, what a concept. Someone 
reads a
> book and says "I GET that! I must be enlightened."  "hm, they say 
here
> no-self is enlightenment. I have searched high and low and cannot 
find
> an ego. Ergo I am enlightened."  Yet so many self-proclaimed
> enlightened, even  here on this list, but more so else where, 
directly
> contradict each other. 
> 
> Sure the indescribable can be approached from different angles. But
> its odd when A says "There is absolutely no ego" and B says, "of
> course there is an ego, you are insane to think there isn't", and C
> says "well, there is an ego, but it finds its proper role as 
servant,
> not master" and D says "You are a fool to try to understand this
> paradox of ego, it is Brahman, it is confusion" and E says "well, 
if
> you take this conic section and slice it, its clear the ego is an
> elipse with 16 dancing golden elves who are really the ashwins." 
> Perhaps they each went to a different Satsang, or read a different 
book.
> 
> Its odd too people claim labels (enlightenemnt, awakening,
> liberation", and not specific "attributes" of such. Its as if the
> label is a smoke screen for "all attributes". But few are willng to
> proclaim specific attributes and discuss in detail. Which if the
> purpose is helping others, to promote insight and understanding, 
could
> serve a role. But usually its "la de da liberation". 
> 
> The socratic method always struck me as useful. No proclamations.
> Simply questions crafted to allow others to get IT in their own 
way,
> by their own means. Not that such should be a universal mandate, 
but
> it does seem to be a humble path to sharing knowledge.
>
Everything you have said here is like someone dancing around and 
around the fire of Realization. Jump In! Burn Up!





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