Remember that old bone we were chewing on?
Judy: The contradiction is that according to science, your constraints, your sense of exercising an act of will to overcome them, and your enjoyment of all that are all *determined*, because the behavior of the elementary particles that make your mind, as well as your body, function operates via mathematically predictable statistical probabilities; there are no "surprises." Me: Maybe this is the heart of our different ways of seeing it. I don't understand how elementary particles make up my mind? Most neuo-scientists view a separate mind body making the distinction like Descarte, don't they? I think Wilber makes this point that these sub atomic particles have nothing to do with conscioudness, they are physical. But is does clarify my own assumptions about the mind body connections. I follow the primacy of matter point of view. Consciousness emerges from the functioning of the parts. I don't think that matter acting strangely at sub-atomic leves changes this split. Judy: Theoretically, if we could compute the billions of bits of behavior of those gazillions of elementary particles, we could predict precisely the chances of your choosing to exercise versus choosing to watch football on TV. Me: Yes, this is our difference. The particles can't determine the content of thought for me. The emergent awareness of "I think therefore I am" level is the beautiful mystery of life. Our choices are not pre-determined, but they are often predicable. Judy: There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of clinical evidence, as it happens, for free will, whereas there's quite a bit *against* it. I was just reading an article in the Times today about how more and more personality traits are being traced to genetics, for example. And Lawson mentioned the famous (infamous?) studies that appear to show that if you're asked to raise your arm, say, the motor neurons that govern the movement of the arm muscles are activated *before* the area of the brain in which decisions to act are made. (I think I have that straight; Lawson will correct me if I don't, I'm sure!) The quote just states free will as a given of our experience. These studies are fascinating. Personally I feel that free will must be practiced. To act in a new original way is very difficult, but when achieved, it is wonderful. I am ready to take my experience of free will as a given. I think we will find more an more influences on us from genetics etc, which only makes it more heroic when we do will our lives in a new direction. Let alone the daily choices that build our future in one direction or other! Nowhere is that more obvious than in personal health. (This is out the sequence of your post) Judy: It's experiencing the *free will* of the "group 'I'" and interpreting it as its own free will. Me: This point of view seems to reduce what I love most about being alive and turns it into an illusion. If it is true, the evidence will have to rub my nose in it. I certainly would not jump to this conclusion anymore than I would adopt the Matrix movie series POV by choice. They are both depressing to me. I don't really understand how the group free will can want to express itself through me getting a drink of water. It seems far fetched. Since neuro science describes the link between our mind an nervous system, it seems like we are missing a nervous system here to support the group "I". Is it a mind without a body? I was going to skip exercise today but now I will be damned if I will! Oh wait, that was predictable as a counter to this post, so I am going to watch the World Cup...no ..., I will put my Nordic Track in front of the tube and do both! That is what I usually do, what a slave I am! I'm pretty sure that I need to read his whole essay at this point. There is too much not clear in his quote. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Your favorite religious organization? Make a donation at Network for Good. http://us.click.yahoo.com/EOl1HB/LPaOAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/