Irmeli, I'm with you on the Pope having done nothing really wrong in this scenario, and that in fact he was trying to spread peace, not conflict.
I think that one of the things that many people are missing is how *medieval* this whole tempest in a pisspot is. That is, they're missing the 700-year historical context of the Pope's recent remarks. It's as fundamental a mistake as trying to figure out what's happening in Northern Ireland without going back 700 years to the origins of the Protestant/Catholic wars. There is a small subset of a subset of medieval historians in the world whose world view is very much centered on the period of the Crusades, and immediately afterwards. They are convinced that many if not most of the trends we see about us in the daily events of our world have their roots in events that took place in the years of the Crusades and the years that followed them. In short, these guys noticed that a *lot* of the memes we take for granted in Western culture -- demonization of homosexuality, Christians looking down on all other religions (especially Islam) as being lower than Christ- ianity or even demonic, Arabs as "filthy," Arabs as "ignorant," Arabs as "backwards," Arabs as "out of touch with modern society" -- had their origin in this period just after the Crusades ended. These historians' view is pretty simple. Europe, in its hubris, launched a set of wars in the Middle East to "recapture the Holy Land." They got their butts whipped. The consolidated might of Europe went to Africa sure of a quick and easy victory, and the survivors came home with their tails between their legs, whimpering like whipped dogs and happy just to still be alive. Shortly thereafter, within a couple of decades, *most* of the language of the nobility of Europe and the Church had changed radically, towards a demonization of the culture that had whipped its ass. Arabs suddenly (his- torically speaking, that is) went from being portrayed as intelligent and sympathetic in European literature, to being portrayed as ignorant, barbaric, and without moral values. Europe reacted to getting its ass whupped by badmouthing the guys who had whupped it, and they have kept reacting the same way for nearly seven centuries now. What you're seeing in the Arab world, in my opinion, is not *just* religious fundamentalism, but a sense of rage at having been treated like the niggers of the world for almost seven hundred years. They WON back then, and they've been being treated like ignoramuses by the losers ever since. They're understandably a little pissed. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention this perspective. It surprises me sometimes that I don't see it more in mainstream analysis of the whole Middle East conflict. To me, reading the news every day is like what reading what the daily news would have been like in the 13th and 14th centuries. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Irmeli Mattsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <jflanegi@> wrote: > > > The current conflict continues as long as the West thinks that by > > killing enough of the third world people, we can force the rest > > into submission and servitude. It isn't working, nor will it. > > > Is this really how the majority of people and the politicians in the > USA think? > Certainly not in Europe and by no means in Finland. Here I feel we are > too understanding of everything people in the Muslim world do and we > don't dare to criticize their values and moral thinking. They are seen > as just the poor victims. > > I don't think they are in the first place victims. I think they are a > culture and religion in deep crisis. Something developmental arrest > there must be, when big parts of people live in deep poverty in spite > of the huge oil riches, and their attitudes and values are on the > level people in Europe had in medieval times. > I think in 2001 the gross national product of the whole Arab world, > when the oil incomes where reduced, was as big as that of Finland's. > Finland has 5 million inhabitants. I find that very telltale. > > In my opinion the pope addresses this issue in the speech relatively > tactfully by a quotation of the issue that he sees to be at the core > of the problem. > Interesting is also his main theme of the speech that Chistianity has > helped in the development of reasonable communication, and moral > reasoning among the people in Europe. > He also says that he appreciates highly science and its achievements. > He is only critical about the narrow use of reason and intellect in > scientific thinking. > Which I think almost all spiritually inclined people can agree about. > > His courageous quotation was good also in that sense that it made me > and many others read his speech, that I found to be fine. I have never > before read a speech by a pope, and got very positively surprised. I'm > not a Christian. > > Irmeli To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! 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