--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hermandan0 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > trying to follow new.mornings posting inspirations, i've started 
> > a new thread instead of intjecting this into the old one :)
> Good plan.
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> 
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "vajradhatu108" 
> > 
> > <snip> 
> > > > Any meditation technique that relies on a object
> > > > of meditation, a mantra, the breath, etc. will by
> > > > it's very nature have some subtle effort (as Mahesh
> > > > acknowledged at Estes Park in regard to TM).* 
> > > 
> > > Of course, it's never been established that what he
> > > said at Estes Park ever "acknowledged" any such
> > > thing.
> > 
> > I'm not sure exactly what the Estes Park quote is, but 
> > Maharishi was quite clear that there is some "doing" 
> > in the thinking/picking up of the mantra and that, yes, 
> > this is a contradictory to the mantra just appearing 
> > on its own. That's why the the instruction to think or 
> > pick up the mantra is qualified by saying "effortlessy" 
> > or "as effortessly as a thought comes". Of course one 
> > is thinking and of course thinking is doing. It may be 
> > an effortless doing, but it's a doing.
> > 
> > While it may not be fair to dismiss TM as being a 
> > technique of "effort" on account of that, vaj is, IMO, 
> > not incorrect in calling it "subtle effort" becaue of 
> > that doing. To misunderstand this puts one in the 
> > position of a meditator I once encountered who asked 
> > "What happens if you sit there for the entire 20 
> > minutes and the mantra doesn't come?" Duh.
> The thing is, you're speaking to a person who (as
> far as I can tell) really *lives* in "Duh-land."
> She probably *believes* that if she sat there for
> 20 minutes and the mantra doesn't "come" that she's
> actually meditating.  :-)

Um, no, I certainly don't believe that.

> The thing is, some people -- fearful types -- got
> so terrorized by the TM dogma that "effort is bad"
> that now they can't admit that there is some subtle
> effort involved with TM, EVEN WHEN MAHARISHI
> SAY IT. They hear him saying it and they feel 
> that they have to come up with amazingly outlandish
> "explanations" for what he "really" meant, and how
> he couldn't *possibly* have been suggesting that
> TM involves some effort or that effort is good.

Quote, please, of MMY saying there is some subtle
effort involved with TM, with context.

> In other words, for these people the dogma of 
> "effortlessness" has become more important than 
> the obvious reality of subtle effort. 
> OF COURSE there is some subtle effort in TM. But
> don't tell the "Duh" folks here (Sparaig and Judy),
> because it's MUCH more fun watching them jump 
> through hoops trying to tell everyone that Maharishi
> didn't really mean what he said, and that they know
> better.  :-)  :-)  :-)

Quotes, please, from Lawson's and/or my posts in
which we jump through hoops trying to tell everyone
that Maharishi didn't mean what he said.

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