--- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Judy: "You're assuming, though, that the human idea of > justice conforms to the universe's idea of justice. > That may not be the case. Karma may work differently, > for instance, for creatures that have free will > versus for those that don't." > > Me: Right, I am assuming that any standard of morality needs to > connect with my sense of what is moral for it to have any meaning > for me. A moral position that allows for willfully imposing > suffering is too far from my own standards to be useful to me. > It goes back to Hume's paradox. God can't be moral, omnipotent > and omniscient at once with the reality of suffering in the world.
Karma, if it exists, is entirely impersonal. It isn't a matter of God sitting up on high and blasting someone with suffering because He doesn't like the way they've behaved. Also, Hume's paradox doesn't take reincarnation into account. The belief in karma doesn't work very well without reincarnation. > I think you are proposing a variation in which our sense of > morality is dismissed as limited, but that redefinition takes > away what I value in the concept of morality. I wasn't *dismissing* it, for heaven's sake, in any practical sense of how one should behave in the world. Our personal idea of morality is all we've got. Belief in karma does *not* mean discarding that idea. I'm just saying you can't look at the apparent cruelty of nature in regard to wild animals and decide that must mean there's no such thing as karma. We don't dismiss the suffering of animals any more than we do the suffering of humans, and we try to remedy it to the extent that we can. That's all part and parcel of the karmic equation. As I said, there are no *practical* implications for behavior of a belief in karma. The only difference it makes is that, *if* the notion of a random universe is disturbing, believing instead that there is some overreaching order, even if you can't discern how it works in any particular case, can keep you from falling into despair. If you're not bothered by the randomness idea, but you *are* disturbed by the notion of an impartial, impersonal cosmic justice, then stick with randomness. Pick the belief that enables you to be most effective in your life. But preferably give each belief a fair shot--try to understand what it involves and implies. I could reject the randomness idea, for instance, on the grounds that it justifies behaving any old way you want, without any sense of morality. That would not be giving the idea a fair shot. > I think that karmic theory was created at a time when Mosaic style > justice was in vogue on earth. Our standards and values have > evolved since then. For example if a child is behaving cruelly, > I am pretty sure being cruel to him or putting him in painful > situations is not going to open his heart in compassion to others. Maybe not in this lifetime. But behaving cruelly to a child because the child is behaving cruelly to others isn't at all something a belief in karma would lead you to do anyway. *You* don't get to determine what the child requires to "teach him a lesson." We have evolved > different techniques since the old style "beat his ass" > retribution style teaching. A belief in karma does *not* involve such a teaching. > But karmic theory seems stuck in the dark ages of our > past when we thought of things in those simplistic terms. With all due respect, I think it's your idea of what belief in karma involves that's simplistic. > If someone > is cruel, give him a life as a leper, that will > straighten him out! Not up to us to determine why someone has been given a life as a leper. We just do whatever we can to mitigate his suffering. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
