--- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > There was nothing -- repeat, *nothing* -- in what
> > > I wrote that suggested or even hinted at determinism.
> > 
> > Point is, Barry, back then you were arguing
> > *against* the idea that there was nothing one
> > could do to become enlightened, and mocking it.
> > Now you're arguing *for* it, and mocking the
> > opposite idea.
> > 
> > I don't care what you want to call it.  I'm
> > just pointing out that your perspective has
> > changed rather drastically.
> 
> No, actually, it hasn't. There is a *great*
> deal one can do to facilitate the realization
> of enlightenment. And to block its realization.
> It's just that neither is the final determining
> factor, just a factor.

If there are other factors involved than what you
yourself can do, then realization is not "available
at any time," which is what you've been claiming.

> Get it now?
>  
> > > In fact, it was specifically about the randomness
> > > of the universe.
> > 
> > You mean, the course of action is unfathomable,
> > just as Krishna tells Arjuna in the Gita?
> > 
> > I wouldn't call it "randomness," though, given
> > what you say above about a "consensus result of
> > the entire "set" of causes/actions."  That sure
> > ain't randomness.
> 
> Yes it is. The composition of the "set" is random,
> at every moment.

Not if cause and effect is involved, it isn't.
Not if "consensus" is involved, it isn't.
Not if that consensus is a *result*, it isn't.

> > > But I can see how it might comfort you to see deter-
> > > minism all around you, even if it's not really there.
> > 
> > And I can see how it might comfort you to think
> > you're in total control.
> 
> I *am* in total control of the things I do to 
> facilitate my realization of enlightenment. But
> I am not silly enough to believe that's all there
> is to it -- "Do X and Y will appear." There are
> other factors that are not in my control

Again, if that's the case, then realization is not
"available at any time."  Sometimes it is *not*
available, if there are other factors involved over
which you do not have control.


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