--- In [email protected], "Richard J. Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Curtis wrote: > > My point is that you don't know if anyone else is > > "effortlessly transcending" or not, you can't know. > > > Have you ever heard of "checking", Curtis? Or, are you > saying that you don't know how to check for effortless > transcending? If so, then you must have sucked as a TM > teacher. I've been a checker for years and I can tell > by consulting the checking notes if transcending has > been effortless or not. This is pretty basic stuff, > Curtis.
ME:We don't check people's practice in other systems of meditation which is my point. For all we know there are plenty of "effortless transcenders" out there. The rest of your points are increasingly combative but but I'll respond to what I can. > > So, you can't say if there are any other programs that > teach effortless transcending. I thought so - you don't > have any knowledge or experience with spiritual groups > other than the one single cult you joined years ago and > used to sing its praises. Now you've got nothing left > except your own nihilisitic personal ideology. ME: I am not a nihilist and do not hold it as an ideology. My life is full of purpose and meaning, I create it for myself. > > Good luck and best wishes. > > > So claims that TM is the "best" or that MMY is doing > > something unique for the spiritual welfare of the > > world are based on hubris and puffery. > > > So, you're saying that for years you took money from poor > students and gave them only hubris and puffery. Don't you > think you should apologize to all the people and return > their money? You lied to people for years, promising them > "enlightenment in 5-7 years." You were full of it and > you're still full of yourself. ME:I hope the people I taught TM to enjoy it. I am not anti-TM. There are many aspects to the teachings which proved false including the 5-7 years to CC claim of MMY. When I taught it I was sincere in my beliefs. > > > People from all different systems love their practices > > and sing their praises. People who gain altered states > > from self-hypnosis report benefits in their lives. Maybe > > all these practices are wonderful. Perhaps all the good > > people closing their eyes with their spiritual practice > > do the same thing or experience the same states. Maybe > > they are different states but have the same positive > > effect on the world. Maybe none of it has any effect on > > the world at all. > > > Maybe, but you really don't know. ME: Exactly my point. TM beliefs concerning its uniqueness have no reasonable support. > > > But none has proven to be the "best" or most important > > for mankind. That is a self important fantasy promoted > > by the endlessly ambitious guy who wanted his brand to > > dominate in the market. He failed. > > > He succeeded in putting the con on you. That makes you one > of the dumbest people on the planet, next to Barry who > actually gave Marshy and Freddy thousands of dollars. ME: I was 16 when I got involved in TM. I have learned some things since then. I am not a dumb person because I have evolved my beliefs through my life. Perhaps you yourself can relate to changing your beliefs as you grew up. > > > "Effortlessly transcending" is a proprietary concept of > > MMY's system. No one knows if this is important or not. > > > Get a grip Curtis! You haven't even defined what > "effortlessly transcending" is, much less what meditation > is. ME: We both know what it means in the TM context. > > > He created the distinction and then proclaimed it as > > important. Most of the people who started TM have > > dropped it. I know this because I ran a campaign in > > '85 to call the 10,000 meditators who had been initiated > > in the DC center. Very few had continued the practice. > > So perhaps the meditations using lots of effort are the > > ones to bet on for real results and people sticking to > > a long term practice. Who know? > > > Cut the bullshit, Curtis. Meditation means "to think > things over", it's that simple. Based on this definition > almost everyone on the planet meditates. Almost everyone > pauses at least twice a day to reflect on their own > thoughts. And everyone is transcending - all the time. ME: You are mushing together distinctions that are useful to me. I don't understand why you would feel that this statement furthers understanding of the term "meditation". If what you say is true then no meditation practice has a value. Reflecting on thoughts is not the practice that I used for 15 years when when I was meditating. Thinking things over may be a part of some other people's meditation. So I don't really get your point here. If meditation is equated with "thinking things over" it would have no usefulness as a separate term. > > You need to get some smarts, Curtis: I said that TM was > the best relaxation technique. You're the idiot that made > claims that about TM by promising them "enlightenment" in > 5-7 years. ME: This is insulting Richard. Calling me an idiot for previously sharing TM beliefs is rude and unproductive for understanding each other. > > > So if you dig TM, good for you, enjoy it. But any > > claim that TM is the toppermost of the poppermost is > > going to get the Raja raspberry from me. > > > Your opinion doesn't count for much on a spiritual forum. ME: Perhaps the other forum's members have a broader understanding of what spirituality is than you do Richard. My view is clearly different from your own. But if you look at Rick's quotes in at the top of the page online you may get a better idea of the broadminded purpose of this forum, which does not restrict its members in the way you imply. If my posts are not interesting or valuable to you reading them is optional. > > > Altered states produced my meditations and hypnosis will > > always fascinate me. > > > Can you cite any scientific, blind studies that would support > your calim that there are any altered states of conciousness > or that there is a corresponding physiological state of > conciousness to an altered state? I think not. ME: You are talking to yourself here. We do not share the same perspective on altered states or the need for physiological criteria for sorting them out. I am more interested in their subjective experiences and how they can be used for enhancing creativity and problem solving. > > > I'm glad so many people are putting in the time to see > > where it all leads. A little open mindedness between > > groups would probably speed our knowledge growth up a > > bit, but if I know hairless apes, that is not an option. > > Humans love to be part of a "special" group. Even if > > it is just a product of their own, or their teacher's, > > imagination. > > > So, you don't know of any other spiritual movements or > teachers that can teach a person how to effortlessly > transcend. So, you're useless as a teacher, useless as a > messenger, and useless as an informer. So, what are you > doing pestering people on this forum? You are the leader > of a close-minded "special" group whose members think > it's fun to poke fun at other people's spiritual path. ME: I am not interested in finding one and you have missed my point. It is the assertion that TMers know that their meditation is unique that I was questioning. Turning it around as if I have to prove the negative is just a sophist's trick and wont work on me. I have beliefs and my own personal path in this life Richard. Questioning belief's, my own another others, is important to my ability to further my understanding. Reducing my posts to the phrase: "poke fund at other people's spiritual beliefs" is an unacceptable reduction of the purpose or meaning of my posts. You don't understand me or my POV at all if this is what you think. > > This says more about you than it does about the people > you poke fun at. It says that you haven't given up your > beliefs about TM - you're still clinging to them. Give > it up and move on, Curtis, stop wasting your time trying > to bring other people down to your level. ME: Thanks for the unsolicited personal advise combined with the personal put-downs! (did you think that the personal abuse would help me understand you better?) The perspective that we are on different levels and that mine is "lower" is just a fancy way to call me a "poopy pants". It shows your lack of interest in understanding me. > > > > Curtis wrote: > > > > For all we know any one of the many spiritual movements > > > > around the world could be popping out people in UC like > > > > a Chinese sweatshop filling a Wallmart order. > > > > > Richard J. Williams wrote: > > > Maybe so, Curtis, but can you cite any other spiritual > > > movements or teachers that can teach a person how to > > > effortlessly transcend? I'd be interested in knowing > > > more about their techniques if you know of any. > > > >
