Actually, that's not quite right, as the bVII works perfectly well as a plagal chord without any extensions whatsoever (which is the chord under discussion), and the bVII7 and bVIImaj7 likewise. I don't think most of us will automatically hear a flat 9 on a regular bVII7. Flat 9 on a tritone substitute (Db7 in the key of C) likewise sounds a bit false to me, even though the diminished chord scale could be identical to G7b9.
A plain bVII chord we could hear most easily as implying C mixolydian, since there are no other chromatic notes stated in the chord. A plain bVII7 we tend to hear as being the closest to the key most easily, that is to say, a Bb7 chord in C major implying borrowed notes from C Aeolian (or F melodic minor or Bb lydian-flat7, depending on your ears). It is quite a stretch to hear a flat 9 on there unless it is actually present in the chord, implying a diminished scale. In my experience, we tend to infer chordal extensions as coming from closest to the key first. However, that being said, even though I hear it more as a plagal chord and you hear it more as a dominant chord, BOTH are perfectly acceptable ways to get back to C anything - tonal, modal, pandiatonic, or other. Christopher At 9:18 AM -0700 4/30/02, Phil Shaw wrote: >The bVII7 gets the leading tone from its b9. >I.e. bVII7b9 is exactly the same chord as V7b9. >That identity leads many (most?) of us to equate >bVII7 and V7 in all alterations. > >Phil Shaw - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://okshaw.com > > > > >Christopher BJ Smith wrote: >> >> At 10:41 AM -0700 4/29/02, Phil Shaw wrote: >> >I find the chord in question generally called bVII, >> >but...in popular music I almost always see it as >> >bVII7 (pronounced 'flat 7 7'), used as an alternative >> >to V7. I.e. the progression bVII7-I is a common >> >substitute for V7-I. >> > >> >Phil Shaw - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://okshaw.com >> >> For jazz and pop music I agree with the analysis bVII, as all roman >> numeral analysis in jazz and pop is referenced to the major scale, >> unlike classical analysis. >> >> I would disagree with the function being a substitute for V7 (even >> though it can take its place, the function changes), as it lacks a >> leading tone. It IS, however, a perfectly good plagal chord, as it >> contains the fourth degree of the key, and omits the leading tone, >> which is how I always defined plagal chords, and so it can substitute >> for the IV or IIm very easily. >> >> In C major, the bVII chord contains the characteristic note (Bb) from >> the mixolydian mode, so I would say that it is borrowed from C mixo. >> I would only say dorian if there were Eb's in the context. >_______________________________________________ >Finale mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
