Hi Chuck, I wholly concur -- "Five" is a remarkable (and prescient) piece, one of Bill's finest works.
Cheers, - DJA ----- WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 17 Sep 2012, at 12:51 AM, Chuck Israels <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Sep 16, 2012, at 9:25 PM, Darcy James Argue <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Chuck, >> >> I definitely hear where you are coming from here, and your solution is >> probably the best given the constraints you are under. The "lumpiness" of >> the syncopated dotted eighth notation is a valid concern, and the 4:3 >> tuplets will most likely be easier for the band to phrase. >> >> However: if I might be so bold: were it me, I might prepare a backup >> alternate drum part which includes the same meter changes the rest of the >> band has... just in case the bandleader concludes that he does not actually >> want what he currently claims to want, or in case the drummer has a >> different idea about what information he wants to see on his part. > > Been there, done that! I included the regular part along with the amended > one that Dave wants. My own drummer here (there's an octet version of this > that we play) wants the part as I have written it. It allows him to relate > better to the dotted halves that I play on the downbeats, etc. (This in > spite of Christopher's incredulity about drummers who listen. Sometimes the > trick is for the drummer to know when not to listen - when the band has > difficulty and the drum part can serve to align them better if the drummer > can ignore their errors. Trouble is, we want sensitive drummers, and it's > hard for them to know when it might be useful for them to desensitize > themselves.) This is beautiful music, and when it is well played, there's > nothing else in jazz quite like it. I love the piece. > > Chuck > > > > > >> >> Cheers, >> >> - DJA >> ----- >> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org >> >> >> >> On 16 Sep 2012, at 11:46 PM, Chuck Israels <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Darcy - replying to the list- also in case it is of interest. >>> >>> I gave some thought to using the subdivisions you suggest - the dotted >>> eighth patterns, and they are certainly mathematically correct. And they >>> allow everything to be written in 4/4 - circumventing that whole problem. >>> But the music has to be figured out in either case. It takes a moment to >>> digest the meaning - how to play the quadruplets, but then they read as >>> they sound - with the accents falling naturally where the notation >>> suggests. If this gets written in syncopated dotted eighths, it also takes >>> a moment of calculation to understand, and then everything looks syncopated >>> and bumpy and you have to figure how to smooth it out and express it as a >>> line. It takes interpretation either way, but I think the way it is >>> written is more communicative of the desired result. >>> >>> And again, in my view, the drum part is fine as it is. This is for Dave >>> berger's band, and he wants things the way he believes they will be easiest >>> for him. An extracted part with 8 measures of 4/4 solved it for his needs. >>> >>> Many thanks, >>> >>> Chuck >>> >>> >>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 7:38 PM, Darcy James Argue <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chuck, >>>> >>>> [I sent you a copy privately, but am CC'ing the list in case it's of >>>> interest] >>>> >>>> The way you have it is fine, IMO. But if you need to put the drum part in >>>> 4/4, I would want to make sure everyone was in 4/4. >>>> >>>> Given this requirement, I'd write all of the 4:3 tuplets as sixteenth-note >>>> subdivisions. i.e.: >>>> >>>> dotted eighth - sixteenth [tied to] eighth - eighth [tied >>>> to] - sixteenth - dotted eighth >>>> >>>> etc. >>>> >>>> You could also make each 4:3 tuplet four dotted eighths (breaking on the >>>> barline as needed, of course. >>>> >>>> Both of these solutions are rhythmically equivalent to what you have, but >>>> allow you to keep everyone in 4/4. >>>> >>>> Rehearsing a bigband piece where the drummer and the rest of the band have >>>> different measure numbers is IMO a recipe for disaster, so I would avoid >>>> like the plague any solution that involves asymmetrical barlines. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> - DJA >>>> ----- >>>> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16 Sep 2012, at 6:43 PM, Chuck Israels <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Darcy, >>>>> >>>>> I just sent you the score - to get a more specific opinion. But just so >>>>> you and Christopher know what I'm facing here, this is the bridge of Bill >>>>> Evans' "Five", in which not only are the measures divided as I describe, >>>>> but the melody is overlaid in groups of 4 quarters in the space of three >>>>> quarters (4:3 tuplets), starting on the second beat of the 4/4 measure. >>>>> (Of course, these are two rhythmically symmetrical phrases, so you only >>>>> have to solve it once). >>>>> >>>>> I played the bass part to this hundreds of times and never once thought >>>>> about how it might be notated. This score supports my contention that >>>>> there was extraordinary invention in Bill's rhythm - a largely ignored >>>>> element when people discuss his music. >>>>> >>>>> I'll send this to Christopher too. >>>>> >>>>> Chuck >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 2:11 PM, Darcy James Argue <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Chuck, >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris has given you the solution for what you want (system-long measures >>>>>> with barlines and time signatures added as expressions/articulations). >>>>>> >>>>>> Depending on the complexity of the part, and whether you need the drum >>>>>> part to appear in the score, there is also the option of creating the >>>>>> drum part as a completely separate Finale document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another option -- and I'm sure you've considered this -- might be to >>>>>> notate the entire thing in 4/4, using accents to create the implied >>>>>> downbeats in the horns etc. (and perhaps even a dashed line showing the >>>>>> implied meters). This is a strategy that has worked well for my music in >>>>>> the past -- implying different meters superimposed onto the 4/4 grid, >>>>>> without changing the actual underlying time signature. >>>>>> >>>>>> This approach might not be suitable for what you've written, but it does >>>>>> have the advantage of being much easier to do in Finale than >>>>>> asymmetrical barlines, and also gives you consistent measure numbers in >>>>>> the drum part vs. the other parts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> - DJA >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16 Sep 2012, at 3:09 PM, Chuck Israels <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a drum part with an independent time signature (that has been >>>>>>> selected in the attributes for this staff), but I don't know how to >>>>>>> rebar the music for the drum part. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All other parts have one measure of 4/4, 4 measures of 3/4, one measure >>>>>>> of 4/4 and 4 measures of 3/4 again. This adds up to 8 measures of 4/4 >>>>>>> for the drummer, and I want the drummer to see only that - not to be >>>>>>> distracted by what the other players are doing. When I change the time >>>>>>> signature on the drum part for the affected measures, the 3/4 measures >>>>>>> are changed to 4/4, but there are too many bar lines, and too many >>>>>>> beats. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What am I doing wrong? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chuck >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chuck Israels >>>>>>> 8831 SE 12th Ave. >>>>>>> Portland, OR 97202-7097 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> land line: (503) 954-2107cell phone: (360) 201-3434 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <www.chuckisraels.com> >>>>>>> <www.chuckisraelsjazz.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Finale mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Finale mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>>>> >>>>> Chuck Israels >>>>> 8831 SE 12th Ave. >>>>> Portland, OR 97202-7097 >>>>> >>>>> land line: (503) 954-2107cell phone: (360) 201-3434 >>>>> >>>>> <www.chuckisraels.com> >>>>> <www.chuckisraelsjazz.com> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Finale mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Finale mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >>> Chuck Israels >>> 8831 SE 12th Ave. >>> Portland, OR 97202-7097 >>> >>> land line: (503) 954-2107cell phone: (360) 201-3434 >>> >>> <www.chuckisraels.com> >>> <www.chuckisraelsjazz.com> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Finale mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Finale mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > Chuck Israels > 8831 SE 12th Ave. > Portland, OR 97202-7097 > > land line: (503) 954-2107cell phone: (360) 201-3434 > > <www.chuckisraels.com> > <www.chuckisraelsjazz.com> > > _______________________________________________ > Finale mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [email protected] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
