Dave, you are saying a lot of interesting things, though I think half of it is far besides the original discussion: whether to package FinkCommander or not, and also whether we need a GUI package as integral part or whether it's sufficient to have it as an "add-on". Hence I split this up into two mails (makes it easier to read).
At 18:37 Uhr -0400 14.04.2002, Dave Vasilevsky wrote: >Max Horn wrote: >>I firmly believe that one thing that makes Fink strong is its focus >>on various key properties. Dilluting them is not going to help us. >>One of these properties is that we stick as much as sanely possible >>in /sw, and we package *unix* applications (except for a few >>auxillary Cocoa/Carbon apps, like AquaTerm and XDarwin). > >True. But it's also Fink's weakness. While Fink's documentation is >great, Fink is still focused on porting apps to the exclusion of >everything else--including usability. I think you are comparing apples with oranges here. The one has nothing to do with the other, IMO. >Don't get me wrong. I think Fink is wonderful, I use it myself all >the time and frankly it's perfect for me. But out of all the mail >I've gotten from users of my packages, between a third and a half >are "how do I use this?" questions. Pretend for a minute that you've >never touched a CLI before, and look at the current instructions for >installing Galeon [comments in braces]: > >1) Download Fink binary installer, double-click, follow instructions >[so far so good]. >2) "pico ~/.cshrc", add "source /sw/bin/init.csh" [ugh]. Two steps that have to be done once and then never again. >3) Command-tilde in the Finder, type in >"/sw/fink/dists/unstable/main/finkinfo". Find .info/.patch files >beginning with "galeon" [double ugh]. >4) "sudo cp " <drag files to terminal window> " >/sw/fink/dists/local/main/finkinfo/" [this is the part users always >seem to forget the next time they need to install a package from >unstable]. >5) Do the same for all the dependencies [*real* ugh]. >6) "fink install galeon" [ahhh, finally the end]. > >The Linux users I tell about Fink pick this up real quick and love >it; the bleeding-six-colours Mac users doze off around step 3. I couldn't care less, to be honest. Though I think you are underestimating the avarage Apple user :-) > I'm *not* saying that the answer for this is packaging FC. Which proves that this mail is off-topic, but interesting nevertheless :-) > Just that Fink's focus might be a bit too narrow, at least from my >point of view--it's a free world though, you can disagree! Come on! What has focus to do with the fact that it's more complicated to use a few selected packages from unstable instead of using "full" unstable by activating it once in fink.conf ? Cleaning up your HD manually by going thru each folder and deleting obsolete files is also much more tedious than just formating the whole thing. I agree many things can be improved, but I think your example is pretty far fetched, and one-sided. > >A couple other points where this "narrow focus" comes up: > >a) We keep saying that Fink stable = Debian stable, Fink unstable = >Debian testing, Fink unstable CVS = Debian unstable. Most "casual" >Debian users use testing; just like Fink unstable, Debian testing is >also "most likely to work as desktop user expects", even if it's not >"least likely to break". But between the lack of a binary distro for >unstable and the need to edit conf-files to access unstable, we make >it hard for casual Fink users to access "Fink testing". That's why I have said we should be much more agressive moving stuff to stable-cvs - so that we get more people to actually "test", and so that we reduce the need to copy stuff from unstable to locale. The issue of the bin distro being only for stable is a complete different one and has been discussed here before, so I am not commenting on it now. > >b) "fink feedback"--arguably the most important tool in changing >Fink so users can use it--seems very much on the backburner. No, I'm >not blaming anyone, I know everyone works hard and Fink has improved >a lot--and yes, I also know I could always add it myself, that's why >I'm learning perl :-). In fact, it would be nice to have this command, and maybe also a nice "feedback" webpage in addition to this. It would certainly be nice to have, but somebody has to write it, and test it, and document it. Volunteers, please step forward - this is a community project, after all. > >Again, I'm not saying these are wrong decisions Sorry, but which "decisions" are you talking about now? >--for my personal usage of Fink, they're (nearly) perfect. But one >of my goals in contributing to Fink is making UNIX software truly >accessibly to Mac users who would never otherwise consider using it, >and so I think these features are important. You mentioned one feature (fink feedback), what's the other? Cheers, Max -- ----------------------------------------------- Max Horn Software Developer email: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> phone: (+49) 6151-494890 _______________________________________________ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
