Dear Bob (and colleagues),
It seems to me that you drive the problem home by signaling that the use of the word information is very loose in many of our debates. Actually, you argue if I correctly understand that this is rich: words only obtain meaning within a sentence, and one can import information in differently phrased sentences. :) The concept that is missing in this context is codification. The word information cannot only be used loosely, but also as a reference to a concept with meaning from theoretical perspectives. I understood that in Chinese, one has two words for information: sjin sji and tsjin bao; the former being Shannon-type information, and the latter also meaning intelligence. It seems to that Terrys information concept in these discussions is rather Shannon-type. He adds the point that information is relative to maximum information (which can also be precisely defined using Shannon). The difference between maximum information and maximum information is redundancy. Weaver (1949) already noted that in addition to engineering noise, one may have semantic noise or equivalently semantic redundancy if, for example, the sources of noise are correlated; for example, in language. This refinement can go further in scholarly discourse where the use of language is restricted. Thus, I dont agree that the journey is the purpose in itself; the objective is to move information theory forward as a scientific enterprise. Wo Begriffe fehlen, fuegt zur rechten Zeit ein Wort sich ein. :) Best wishes, Loet _____ Loet Leydesdorff Emeritus University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR) <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net> l...@leydesdorff.net ; <http://www.leydesdorff.net/> http://www.leydesdorff.net/ Honorary Professor, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/> SPRU, University of Sussex; Guest Professor <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/> Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html> ISTIC, Beijing; Visiting Professor, <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/> Birkbeck, University of London; <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Bob Logan Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 3:07 PM To: Pedro C. Marijuan Cc: 'fis' Subject: Re: [Fis] Concluding the Lecture? Thanks Pedro for your remarks. We have not reached our destination as you point out but the important thing is to enjoy the journey which I certainly have. It is inevitable that with such a slippery concept as information that there will be different destinations depending on the travellers but what I like about FIS in general and the dialogue that Terry prompted in particular is the interesting ideas and good company I encountered along the way. As for your remark about searching where there is light I suggest that we pack a flashlight for the next journey to be led by our tour guide Zhao Chuan. One common theme for understanding the importance of both information and intelligence for me is interpretation and context (figure/ground or pragmatics). Thanks to all especially Terry for a very pleasant journey. - Bob ______________________ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan <http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan> www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications <http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications> On 2015-01-30, at 8:25 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote: Dear Terry and colleagues, At your convenience, during the first week of February or so we may put an end to the ongoing New Year Lecture --discussants willing to enter their late comments should hurry up. Your own final or concluding comment will be appreciated. Personally, my late comment will deal with the last exchange between Bob and Terry, It is about the point which follows: "...there was no thesis other than the word information is a descriptor for so many different situations and that it is a part of a semantic web - no roadmap only a jaunt through the countryside of associations - a leisurely preamble." In my own parlance, we have been focusing this fis session on the microphysical foundations of information (thermodynamic in this case) which together with the quantum would look as the definite foundations of the whole field, or even of the whole "great domain of information." But could it be so? Is there such thing as a "unitary" foundation? My impression is that we are instinctively working "where the light is", reminding the trite story of the physicists who has lost the car keys and is looking closest to the street lamp. The point I suggest is that the different informational realms are emergent in the strongest sense: almost no trace of the underlying information realms would surface. Each realm has to invent throughout its own engines of invention the different informational & organizational principles that sustain its existence. It is no obligate that there will be a successful outcome.... In the extent to which this plurality of foundations is true, solving the microphysical part would be of little help to adumbrating the neuronal/psychological or the social information arena. The roadmap Bob suggests is an obligatory exploration to advance; we may disagree in the ways and means, but not in the overall goal. It is a mind boggling exercise as we have to confront quite different languages and styles of thinking. For instance, the next session we will have at FIS (in a few weeks) is an attempt of an excursion on "Intelligence Science". Presented by Zhao Chuan, the aim is of confronting the phenomenon of intelligence from a global perspective amalgamating science (artificial intelligence), emotions, and art (poetic and pictorial). Not easy, but we will try Anyhow, Terry, we much appreciate your insights and the responses you have produced along the Lecture. It was a nice intellectual exercise. Best wishes to all---Pedro ------------------------------------------------- Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ ------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
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