> head>Il 23 febbraio 2018 alle 20.47 PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ 
> <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> ha scritto:
> 
> 
>     Dear Krassimir and FIS colleagues,
> 
>      
> 
>     Many thanks for your message & effort to prepare the compilation to be 
> published soon. It is good counting with dissemination works that take these 
> information debates to different environments so that new insights and 
> conceptual cross fertilizations may occur. (These weeks I have been rather 
> absent minded, involved with the nasty task of closing my desk room and 
> having to transport home all my archives--throwing away lots and lots of 
> reprints and docs. No space available at home! It was very fatiguing. 
> Hopefully it is almost over.) Well, about Arturo's last comment, am sorry 
> about having to leave out of science most of research activities of last 
> centuries, including some of the Greatest Founding Books of Biology 
> (Darwin's), Neuroscience (Ramon y Cajal's, Sherrington's) and many others. No 
> maths there! Watson & Crick's arch-famous paper with the DNA report had no 
> maths either... They all will join the heaps of papers I discarded! Well, 
> more seriously, FIS was conceived to articulate a common ground in between 
> the different info worlds, utterly separated, taking from the 
> physical/computational, to the biological/neuronal, and to the 
> personal/social. There was, and there is, no immediate "informational" 
> connection at all. Perhaps after taking various steps behind each one of 
> these realms, a sort of general interconnecting thread could be discovered; 
> this is what we thought long ago. Hélas, as all these years discussions have 
> witnessed, the itinerary resembles an intransitable Moebius band rather than 
> a linear path... But at least there is fun in the attempt.
> 
>     About data, "dataism", and some other curiosities we will have a new 
> discussion session at the end of next week. Raquel del Moral will present the 
> chair of this new session.
> 
>     Best wishes to all,
> 
>     --Pedro
> 
>      
> 
>     On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:50:08 +0200 "Krassimir Markov" wrote:
> 
>     blockquote>
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Dear FIS Colleagues,
> 
>      
> 
>     The main result of our paper “Data versus Information” is the 
> understanding that the data and information are different (external and 
> internal kinds of reflection for subjective consciousness), i.e. "Information 
> = data + something in and by consciousness"
> 
>      
> 
>     After publishing the paper, Arturo wrote an important remark and I 
> promise to answer in this letter. In private conversation we had discussed 
> some aspects. The conversation was interesting but it is not available for 
> the FIS-list and I have no permission to publish it. Because of this I will 
> use abstract form of questions (Q) and answers (A).
> 
>     Dear Arturo, I apologize in advance but I hope there is nothing bad in 
> this and it will be useful.
> 
>      
> 
>     The remark of Arturo was: I'm just annoyed that the most represented 
> position among FISers, i.e., that information is an objective, quantitative, 
> physical measure linked to informational entropy, has not been taken into 
> account at all.  After all our efforts to maintain our firm position, we have 
> been censored.
> 
>      
> 
>     (A):      Usually we say “we collect information” measuring different 
> real features – temperature, distance, weigh, etc. Scientists from physics do 
> this permanently.
> 
>     p> 
> 
>      
> 
>     The methodical error here is that really we collect data.
> 
>      
> 
>     After processing the data in the consciousness, the information may be 
> created in it. Reflections (data) exist everywhere, but information exists 
> only in consciousness. It is important that information in the consciousness 
> of one subject is external for another, i.e. it is data for him/her.
> 
>      
> 
>     Yes, I know that many people believe in the opposite, but still there are 
> no scientific basics this believing to become scientific theory.
> 
>      
> 
>     I am mathematician who had worked in the institute of mathematics more 
> than 40 years and, in particular, I have taught probability and statistics. I 
> absolutely clearly know (and every good mathematician knows!) that the 
> probabilities are a human model and do not exist in the reality. Because of 
> this, all definitions of information based on probability are the same what 
> we had published in the paper. This kind of information exits only in the 
> concrete human consciousness!
> 
>      
> 
>     The rest is data; sometimes called: "statistical data".
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     (Q):       Statistics is so important, that we can quantify the 
> standpoint of our reality, i.e., quantum mechanics, just through statistical 
> tools. If you negate statistics in the study of reality, you fully destroy 
> the medicine, the scientific method and the prospective and retrospective 
> studies. It is totally absurd to negate the importance of statistics. I'm 
> sorry, but yours is just a metaphysical approach to scientific problems.
> 
>     p> 
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     (A):       Yes, I agree that the statistics is very important and useful. 
> But we discuss "what is the information?" and not "is the statistics 
> important or not?".
> 
>      
> 
>     Only what I say is that the statistics is pure humans' activity. By 
> processing statistical data we may predict many events. But this not excludes 
> humans'. Computer prosthesis of our brains does not change the situation.
> 
>      
> 
>     Animals do not process statistical data and do not compute probabilities 
> but very well process data which they receive via their receptors.
> 
>      
> 
>     In the same time, humans may build statistical models of animals' 
> activities.
> 
>      
> 
>     Let remember that the mathematics at all ignore the subjects in the 
> mathematical theories but this does not means that the subjects do not 
> exists. One and the same formula may be computed by one student who knows how 
> to do this and could not be computed by other who does not know this.
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     (Q):       "Animals do not process statistical data and do not compute 
> probabilities "...
> 
>      
> 
>     p>Do not forget that one of the most successful current brain theory, 
> i.e., Karl Friston's free energy principle talk of Bayesian priors endowed in 
> our brain...
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     (A):       NIce! But brains had worked this way many, many years before 
> Bayes had invented his theories and Karl Friston had invented the free energy 
> principle.
> 
>      
> 
>     p>We may build many different models of the brain and all in some aspects 
> will be adequate to what we may measure in and from the brain. This in one 
> hand!
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     In other hand, this again confirms that all information processes are 
> provided just in the brain but not in the stones and in the water somewhere 
> outside of the brain.
> 
>      
> 
>     So,  we have the same:   "Information = data + something in and by 
> consciousness"
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     (Q):       Mmmm... the problem is exactly your "something"... it smells 
> of untestable, therefore useless and metaphysical. Gimme just one testable 
> prevision of your model!
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     (A):       For the first step, please imagine that you enter in your room.
> 
>      
> 
>     What do you expect to see - table, chairs, maybe any friend, etc.
> 
>      
> 
>     p>Now, what if you passing the door will see the sea - dark blue water 
> with very big waves?
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Your "something in consciousness" will alarm "stop, this is not your way"!
> 
>      
> 
>     Your brain will compare the "something in consciousness" with incoming 
> reflection (data) and as far is the new data to it so unexpected it is.
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     *** End of conversation ***
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     The important keyword in this conversation is the concept “model”. Models 
> are created by or reflected in the consciousness.
> 
>      
> 
>     Because of this, my simple question is:
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     div> 
> 
>      
> 
>     What is the “mental model”?
> 
>      
> 
>     p> 
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Friendly greetings
> 
>      
> 
>     Krassimir
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     p> 
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     From: tozziart...@libero.it
> 
>     Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:42 PM
> 
>     To: fis@listas.unizar.es ; Krassimir Markov
> 
>     Subject: Re: [Fis] The polite and high scientific style of the posts to 
> be published in an International Journal are OBLIGATED!
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Dear Krassimir,
> 
>      
> 
>     There is a misundertanding.
> 
>      
> 
>     I'm not discussing the quality of the Journal, nor the absence of my name.
> 
>      
> 
>     I'm just annoyed that the most represented position among FISers, i.e., 
> that information is an objective, quantitative, physical measure linked to 
> informational entropy, has not been taken into account at all.  After all our 
> efforts to mantain our firm position, we have been censored.
> 
>      
> 
>     Il 18 febbraio 2018 alle 23.15 Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> ha 
> scritto:
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Dear Arturo,
> 
>      
> 
>     1. You are not correct and not right!
> 
>      
> 
>     If it is written as you have seen, it is just as it is!
> 
>     Three times we kindly asked for permission but no answer.
> 
>     It is possible that my letters were rejected automatically as spam.
> 
>     What to do? Only what we could to do was to cite posts and to give links.
> 
>      
> 
>     In addition, it is impossible to include long posts in a short paper.
> 
>     Because of this, they have to be shortened by author (preferred) or by 
> the editor.
> 
>      
> 
>     2. The main result from our work on the paper is clearly summarized in my 
>  final words in the paper.
> 
>     No problems, if you could not read them.
> 
>     My next post next week will remember it.
> 
>      
> 
>     3. Finally, the paper in not stenographic protocol.
> 
>     Not every post is connected to the given theme and it is clear that it 
> could not be taken in a short paper.
> 
>     The theme of discussion for the paper usually is pointed in my “simple 
> questions”.
> 
>      
> 
>     If your posts will concern the discussed theme, please clearly point this.
> 
>      
> 
>     4. In the next discussion which will start soon, everybody is kindly 
> invited to take part and to be included in the future paper.
> 
>      
> 
>     The polite and high scientific style of the posts to be published in an 
> International Journal are OBLIGATED!
> 
>      
> 
>     p>Friendly greetings
> 
>      
> 
>     Krassimir
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     From: tozziart...@libero.it
> 
>     Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2018 10:58 PM
> 
>     To: Krassimir Markov ; fis@listas.unizar.es
> 
>     Subject: Re: [Fis] The FIS paper "Data versus Information " is published
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Dear, prominent Authors,
> 
>      
> 
>     You write in this paper: " Several posts are not included in the text 
> below due to lack of permission from their authors".
> 
>      
> 
>     p>I think that several post were not included in the text just because 
> they were too critical against the loose, flabby concepts of information 
> provided in this paper. 
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Some contributions are very interesting, but others deserve the despising 
> label of pseudoscience.
> 
>      
> 
>     On the other side, If you provide ELEVEN (more or less, I cannot be sure, 
> I counted it, but I lost my attention after the Greeek Gods...) different 
> definitions of information, how do you hope to be trusted?
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Forgive me to be honest, but FIS means also harsh discussion! 
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Il 18 febbraio 2018 alle 20.49 Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> ha 
> scritto:
> 
>      
> 
>     p> 
> 
>      
> 
>     Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,
> 
>      
> 
>     I am glad to inform you that the paper which was created by a group of 
> FIS members is ready.
> 
>     It is published with open access in the International Journal 
> “Information Theories and Applications”, Volume 24, Number 4, pages 303-321.
> 
>      
> 
>     The title of the paper is “Data versus Information“.
> 
>     It contains a small part of FIS discussions but it is representative how 
> creative is the FIS society!
> 
>     Many thanks to authors of the paper – more than three months we work on 
> the paper!
> 
>      
> 
>     Links:
> 
>     IJ ITA Vol. 24:  http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita-fv24.htm 
> http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita-fv24.htm
> 
>     Direct link to the paper: 
> http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf 
> http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf
> 
>      
> 
>     Friendly greetings
> 
>     Krassimir
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     p> 
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     _______________________________________________
> 
>     Fis mailing list
> 
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> 
>     http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis 
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Arturo Tozzi
> 
>      
> 
>     AA Professor Physics, University North Texas
> 
>      
> 
>     Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy
> 
>      
> 
>     Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba
> 
>      
> 
>     http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     _______________________________________________
> 
>     Fis mailing list
> 
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> 
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> 
>      
> 

 


 

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Arturo Tozzi

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ 
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