I also miss ! and friends, let me know if you end up implementing these!
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Diego Zamboni <di...@zzamboni.org> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> I couldn’t agree more. There are a few things I found frustrating in fish
> at first (some I still do, like the inability to recall previous
> commands/arguments with !! and !$ - I have to look more into coding those
> with functions), but over time I’ve found the interactive shell experience
> SO MUCH BETTER. For example, when I have to use bash on other machines, I
> miss the automatic history completion and Ctl-F to complete commands. I
> *love* the completion system and how everything can be defined as a
> function so it’s trivial to redefine default behaviors if you want.
>
> Aleksey: fish is indeed not bash, but in a good way. There are many things
> that could be improved, for sure, but it’s great even now. The community
> and developers are friendly and helpful, and if you stick around, you’ll
> see that good-natured feedback is always received well and addressed
> promptly.
>
> —Diego
>
>
> > On May 7, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Robert Carpenter <rob...@robacarp.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Aleksey,
> >
> > I honestly can't decide if you're trying to troll the mailing list or if
> you have legitimate questions. I'm going to take a risk of feeding the
> troll here in hopes that you're actually, honestly trying to understand
> fish-shell.
> >
> > To save yourself some time, I'll put the summation at the top. Continue
> reading if you wish.
> >
> > To sum up: Fish shell is not bash. It tries to do things better.
> Sometimes that means different. It takes some getting used to.
> >
> > And now a little more:
> >
> > Several of the features you've suggested could be helpful, but I think
> it is important to remember that fish-shell is not, nor does it try (or
> even want) to be bash or even bash compliant. The interaction is
> *necessarily* different.
> >
> > In my experience, bash is different, but equally frustrating when
> looking for help on builtins:
> >
> > When I run `man for`, I get a man page or BUILTIN(1)...which lists all
> the builtin commands, does absolutely nothing to explain the behavior of
> the 'for' command, and (perhaps more importantly) doesn't suggest any
> further recourse for understanding what I am curious about.
> >
> > Now, perhaps I'm missing some subtlety about bash -- I used it
> recklessly for about 8 years without ever learning much about it. But the
> principle of discoverability is completely missing from that experience.
> >
> > `env NAME=value command` is a perfectly acceptable system. It is
> *different*. But it is different for good reasons. It is more obvious to
> the user, less ambiguous to the interpreter, and obeys the principals of
> consistency, composition, and modularity (env is a command, which sets an
> environment variable, and then runs a given argument in the altered
> environment). These rules and others are available on the wikipedia page
> for the Unix Philosophy[1].
> >
> > As for fetching help on every command when you make an error, that is
> actually the principal of discoverability at work. It is the default
> paradigm for any well designed shell tool, why should the shell itself be
> different? If you find yourself wanting examples, have a look at ssh, cp,
> and scp.
> >
> > I'll admit, when I first started using fish-shell, I was frustrated by
> the fact that help opened the browser by default. But my workflow is
> frequently switching back and forth between the shell and chrome (read:
> stackoverflow). Why not provide a richer help experience, where related
> commands can be easily found, rich on page searching is still available
> (and probably better)? I honestly do think that fish could use a better
> help experience, but I also don't think your method of requesting it is
> helpful at all.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
> >
> >> On May 5, 2015, at 10:03, Aleksey Midenkov <mide...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Siteshwar <sitesh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Hello Aleksey,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for trying fish.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Aleksey Midenkov <
> midenok+f...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> help for
> >>>>
> >>>> It opened browser window... I don't need browser, I need quick and
> >>>> easy way to access basic syntax what does inline help in bash. It's
> >>>> console app after all!
> >>>>
> >>>>> man for
> >>>>
> >>>> Not really good: the default PAGER is 'less' which doesn't fully
> >>>> comply with 'quick and easy'. Well, if to trim NAME section and quick
> >>>> description ('for - perform a set of commands multiple times.') and
> >>>> output with 'cat' it will be almost like 'help' in bash, but:
> >>>>
> >>>>> PAGER=cat man for
> >>>> fish: Unknown command 'PAGER=cat'. Did you mean to run man with a
> >>>> modified environment? Try 'env PAGER=cat man…'. See
> >>>> the help section on the set command by typing 'help set'.
> >>>>
> >>>> I recall, that I've read something about "fish doesn't like
> >>>> subshells". Well, it's good to set variables inside pipes: I like
> >>>> that! But, here I want quick and easy way to use temporary settings.
> >>>> Ok, let's try what error said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> env PAGER=cat man for
> >>>> No manual entry for for
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> OMG, what was that?? It set PAGER and forgot all other variables? I
> >>>> guess, it executed '/usr/bin/env' which is not related to any shell
> >>>> and behaves how it wants, thus not a good method. I just want a
> >>>> subshell here with a quick and concise:
> >>>>
> >>>>> PAGER=cat man for
> >>>>
> >>>> And it is kind of cumbersome to add 'env' here (even if it worked)...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It's rather simple. Just type 'for' and press enter to see help text .
> >>
> >> Seriously? Making errors just to get inline help is not the right way
> >> to do it. It will not work for all commands (f.ex. 'set' and 'echo').
> >> Moreover, I don't need inline help every time I make real mistake,
> >> obviously...
> >>
> >> I see, that command built-ins have '--help' option. This is not unified
> way:
> >>
> >> 1. no '--help' for syntactic statements like 'for', 'if'.
> >> 2. With '--help' there is no clarity that this is sure built-in When
> >> I type 'help COMMAND' I am sure that this is help about built-in. When
> >> I type 'COMMAND --help' I'm not sure if this is built-in or not (maybe
> >> there is no such built-in and this is help about executable util).
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Btw, if someone is interested, I decided to look at 'fish' because of
> >>>> course 'bash' scripting is horrible! And the fact that 'fish' supports
> >>>> var-change hooks was a signal to start examining it. But such basic
> >>>> and simple failures give wa-ay too much no-go. The interactivity of
> >>>> 'fish' is not really good. Well, by interactivity I don't mean all
> >>>> these traffic-light colors and popping stuff (which frankly don't add
> >>>> good impression) but simply 'what you type and what you get'...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Let us know if you have any suggestions to improve fish.
> >>
> >> I already did. As was said, it would be good to have 'VAR=x COMMAND'
> >> syntax to define temporary variables just for one command.
> >> Secondly, it would be good to have 'help COMMAND' to get inline help
> >> on topic, not in browser, not in man page, just on STDOUT.
> >> And thirdly, no need (and in fact is nagging) to get inline help on
> >> every error. If isn't yet, there should be an option to turn it off.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> One dashboard for servers and applications across
> Physical-Virtual-Cloud
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> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> Fish-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fish-users
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Siteshwar
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> >> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> >> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> >> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> >> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Fish-users mailing list
> >> Fish-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fish-users
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fish-users mailing list
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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--
Thanks!
Charlie
512-698-2009
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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