Hi Guy,
Just an idea. What do you think about funding a group for
developping a
SVG building and running platform in ActionScript.
Maybe it should be te best way to show the benefits of SVG and make it
available for the whole community of flash-flex developers ?
And if such a group succeeds, its SVG implementation could be
sustainable, because based on a cross platform.
Just an other idea. We could name it SolVinG as Stantard on line
Vector
... ... Graphics.
The contest is open for finding i and n !
have a nice day
Guy Morton a écrit :
>
> Hi Doug
>
>
> I've been working with web technologies since 1994, so it's not
like I
> don't know how this stuff works.
>
> I didn't say that web standards committees are good at finishing
> specifications, or resolving issues in a timely way. There are many
> competing interests involved in most of them, not least companies
like
> MS, Apple, Adobe, Sun, IBM etc, all of whom have axes to grind and
> "shareholder value" to deliver.
>
> What I *am* saying is that where a decent standard exists it ought
to
> be supported. HTML standards have been supported since the earliest
> days of the web, and though there are still spots on the various
> implementations, by and large they have delivered an interoperable
web.
>
> SVG today is a mature enough standard to have very good
> implementations in Safari, Firefox and Opera. Many of the things
Flash
> can do you can do natively in these browsers using a W3C standard
> technology. I think this is a good thing and should be supported.
> Adobe and MS are the holdouts on this - Adobe because they have
backed
> away from supporting SVG by ceasing development on their SVG plugin
> and providing only very limited support for static SVG in Flash, and
> MS because they "embraced and extended" SVG into Silverlight and
> called it their own proprietary technology while refusing to
implement
> SVG support in IE.
>
> I don't care how much you hate W3C committees, both of these
companies
> are ignoring a good and stable standard for their own narrow
benefit.
> Sorry, but I think that's wrong. Their official line on SVG is
> corporate double-speak at its worst ("we love standards and SVG is
> great - we helped define it! - but we're not going to support it
> because...um...we can't figure out how to? no, um, we're busy
washing
> our hair?, um...").
>
> Companies can and will innovate around standards (Netscape's frames
> come to mind), and open new areas of technology that can later
become
> fodder for standards groups (the iPhone may well become this at some
> point). I'm not saying this is a bad thing, so long as the
innovations
> delivers something worthwhile (eg NOT Microsoft's marquee tag).
> Ignoring standards to win a technology war *is* a bad thing. MS is
an
> old hand at this, and unfortunately Adobe now seems to be adopting
> some similar behaviors.
>
> Finally, if you think standards don't work, then suggest an
> alternative to allowing interoperability in a multi-platform world.
>
> Guy
>
>
>
> On 28/01/2009, at 3:23 AM, Doug McCune wrote:
>
>> Apologies for how long this email became, but I was reading
around on
>> the trusty wikipedia and wanted to try to clear up some things
about
>> the "success" of the existing web standards. I don't want this to
>> come off as too much of a rant, but it proably will.
>>
>> Let's take a look at the history of CSS
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
CSS>):
>>
>> CSS level 1: November 4, 1997
>> CSS level 2: May 12, 1998
>> CSS level 3: began 1998, still unfinished
>>
>> A brief excerpt:
>> The CSS Working Group began tackling issues that had not been
>> addressed with CSS level 1, resulting in the creation of CSS
level 2
>> on November 4, 1997. It was published as a W3C Recommendation on
May
>> 12, 1998. _CSS level 3, which was started in 1998, is still under
>> development as of 2008_.
>>
>> _In 2005 the CSS Working Groups decided to enforce the requirements
>> for standards more strictly. This meant that already published
>> standards like CSS 2.1, CSS 3 Selectors and CSS 3 Text were pulled
>> back from Candidate Recommendation to Working Draft level._
>>
>> And if you really want to have fun look at the half-assed
>> implementation of CSS across the many
>> browsers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(CSS)
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28CSS%29
>.
>> It's been 10 years since CSS 2 was written (10 years!) and yet
there
>> still isn't even consistent implementation of that. And CSS 3
>> implementation is a joke.
>>
>> Maybe HTML is better, let's look at that
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML#Version_history_of_the_standard
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
HTML#Version_history_of_the_standard>):
>> HTML 2: 1995
>> HTML 3.2 recommendation: January, 1997
>> HTML 4 recommendation: December, 1997
>> HTML 5 working draft: January 2008 (10 years!)
>>
>> Hmm, maybe we can look at ECMAScript, the standard controlling
>> JavaScript development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECMAScript
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECMAScript>)
>> ECMAScript 1: June 1997
>> ECMAScript 2: June 1998
>> ECMAScript 3: December 1999
>> Added E4X to ECMAScript: June 2004
>> ECMAScript 4: scrapped
>> ECMAScript Harmony: in development
>>
>> And now, finally, we'll look at the timeline of Flash/ActionScript:
>> Flash Player 2: 1997
>> Flash Player 3: 1998
>> Flash Player 4: May, 1999
>> Flash Player 5: August 2000
>> ActionScript 1: September, 2000
>> Flash Player 6: March 2002
>> Flash Player 7: September 2003
>> ActionScript 2: September 2003
>> Flash Player 8: August 2005
>> Flah Player 9: June 2006
>> ActionScript 3: June 2006
>> Flash Player 10: October 2008
>>
>> So for literally the past 10 years the standards bodies haven't
been
>> able to release a single completed specification. That goes for
HTML,
>> CSS, and ECMASCript (the closest would be the draft of the
>> unimplemented HTML 5 that was released a year ago). The entire
>> "standards-based web" is running on stuff that was written before
the
>> dot-com bubble burst! Now look at how Flash has progressed since
>> 1999. That includes the complete evolution of ActionScript all the
>> way from the very first version to the AS3 (including the recent
>> Vector, etc enhancements that come with Player 10). The entire
>> evolution of AS3 occurred after the last ECMAScript spec was
written.
>> CSS 3 started development in 1998 and still isn't finished. In that
>> same time period we went from Flash Player 3 to 10.
>>
>> I'm not holding my breath for anything new coming out of these
>> standards groups. 10 years and they can't write a specification.
The
>> entire world changes in 10 years.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Guy Morton <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On 27/01/2009, at 6:10 PM, Sam Lai wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think the issue here is that if Adobe/MS used SVG as a base
instead
>> >> of their proprietary XML dialects, then they won't be able to
innovate
>> >> and implement new features as quickly.
>> >>
>> > I disagree, and cite the HTML web browser example again....
>> >
>> >> If they added proprietary extensions to SVG, there'll be a
massive
>> >> backlash as seen with IE and its CSS, JS and HTML extensions.
>> >>
>> > IE is criticized because it is rubbish and *doesn't follow the
>> > standards*.
>> >
>> >> If they try to get it into the standard, it will take ages to
get it
>> >> through the committee, and they will lose the competitive
advantage of
>> >> developing that feature in the first place.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately the standards process just does not keep up with
>> >> innovation. But personally, I don't think it should - details
should
>> >> be thrashed out, and issues should be resolved in standards,
>> >> particularly those that could not be foreseen during the initial
>> >> implementation.
>> >>
>> > Yes, that tends to happen and is fine...the point is though
that there
>> > is a working towards a standard, which is not currently what's
>> > happening with Flash or Silverlight. Both are pretending SVG
doesn't
>> > exist. Flash has some token support for it is the best anyone
can say.
>> >
>> >> I'm a believer of what Sebastian said - "Competition is what
drives
>> >> technology forward, standards come after the war to clean up
the mess,
>> >> but they don't innovate."
>> >>
>> > Again, i disagree, but then maybe I think more highly of
humanity than
>> > you do... :-)
>> >
>> >> What would be nice would be a SVG container for Flex/SL, and
one that
>> >> can reach out into the app and allow the app to reach in.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Indeed. I'd be amazed if both MS and Adobe don't have a
functioning
>> > SVG interpreter figured out for their respective plugins, ready
to
>> > jump if that ever becomes necessary (ie, their market share would
>> > improve if they included it).
>> >
>> > Guy
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2009/1/27 Guy Morton <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]
>>:
>> >> > Both Adobe and MS could have used SVG as the basis for Flex
and
>> >> Silverlight,
>> >> > but both prefer to lock people into proprietary approaches.
Just
>> >> because SVG
>> >> > doesn't do everything Flash/Flex can do is no reason to use
all
>> >> the things
>> >> > it DOES do (it has styling and scripting support for a
start...).
>> >> > Having used both SVG and Flex, I can tell you the
fundamentals are
>> >> the same.
>> >> > Sure Flex has a much better component library and the flash
player
>> >> has
>> >> > better penetration, but most of the things I currently do in
Flex
>> >> are doable
>> >> > in SVG.
>> >> > Making the Flex SDK open source is a strategic decision to
capture
>> >> more
>> >> > market share. It has nothing to do with supporting W3C
standards.
>> >> It is only
>> >> > about funneling more developers into delivering for the Flash
>> >> platform in
>> >> > the face of MS and Silverlight.
>> >> > I think you are seriously misguided about the role of
standards.
>> >> HTML seems
>> >> > to have worked pretty well. I don't see MS or Adobe trying
to do
>> >> their own
>> >> > versions of that (though they may screw up their support for
it at
>> >> times,
>> >> > yes IE is dreadful)...
>> >> > Guy
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 27/01/2009, at 9:30 AM, Sebastien ARBOGAST wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Like all W3C standards, SVG is just one tiny little piece of
the
>> >> puzzle. The
>> >> > Flash platform or silverlight offer much more than that of
course.
>> >> Component
>> >> > libraries, styling, scripting support, system integration,
>> >> remoting support,
>> >> > IDEs, and all the accessories that, like it or not, only a big
>> >> company can
>> >> > produce.
>> >> >
>> >> > Competition is what drives technology forward, standards come
>> >> after the war
>> >> > to clean up the mess, but they don't innovate.
>> >> > With the iPhone being so closed, at least Android and Palm
have a
>> >> big card
>> >> > to play on openness to compete.
>> >> > But wishing for one silver bullet technology is not a dream,
it is
>> >> not even
>> >> > a utopia, it's like wishing for hell on earth.
>> >> > Oh, and by the way, the Flex SDK is totally Open Source, but
this
>> >> has
>> >> > already been repeated thousands of times so I guess you know.
>> >> > Sébastien Arbogast
>> >> >
>> >> > http://sebastien-arbogast.com <http://sebastien-arbogast.com>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 2009/1/26 Guy Morton <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]
>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Mm..yes, but then again Apple is supporting SVG on the
>> >> iPhone...Adobe
>> >> >> hasn't exactly covered itself in glory with its support for
SVG.
>> >> Of course
>> >> >> since they bought Macromedia they no longer have any
strategic
>> >> use for it.
>> >> >> And now we have Silverlight from MS we have THREE
technologies
>> >> that are
>> >> >> essentially the same - two proprietory and one a W3C
standard.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sigh. It's the usual mess we get when corporations exercise
their
>> >> >> competitive impulses.
>> >> >> Wouldn't it have been nice to have an open vector animation
>> >> standard (SVG)
>> >> >> that would play in a commonly deployed runtime (Flash)?
Then we
>> >> could all
>> >> >> develop once and have native playback in browsers that
support
>> >> SVG, player
>> >> >> support for those that don't and we'd be able to target the
iPhone.
>> >> >> That of course will never happen. :-)
>> >> >> Guy
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 27/01/2009, at 12:23 AM, Wally Kolcz wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Could not have put it any better myself.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ________________________________
>> >> >> From: "Paul Andrews" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]
>>
>> >> >> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:07 AM
>> >> >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]
>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Flex. AIR and IPhone
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> LOL, yes - the iphone only supports two gestures for flex,
flash
>> >> and air
>> >> >> and they involve the use of one or two fingers..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From:Sebastien ARBOGAST
>> >> >> To:[email protected]
>> <mailto:to%[email protected]>
>> >> >> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:28 AM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Flex. AIR and IPhone
>> >> >> You can start by a prayer, because the Flash runtime is not
>> >> available on
>> >> >> the iPhone in any form, including AIR.
>> >> >> And it will probably never be because of commercial and
strategic
>> >> reasons:
>> >> >> the day people can deploy Flex applications to the iPhone,
the
>> >> App Store is
>> >> >> as good as dead... sort of.
>> >> >> Sébastien Arbogast
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://sebastien-arbogast.com <http://sebastien-arbogast.com>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2009/1/26 thelordsince1984 <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> i would create an air application and deploy it into iphone
>> >> >>> environment and allow touchscreen gestures.
>> >> >>> How can i start?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Thanks a lot
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Regards
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Lorenzo
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > --
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>
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