On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:45:46 +0200, 
Christian Mayer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Jonathan Polley wrote:
> > 
> > On Saturday, September 21, 2002, at 09:05  PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT),
> > > Jonathan Polley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > >
> > >> I have a few questions brought about by some recent experiences,
> > >but> what they boil down to is "Are we going to reestablish the
> > >minimun> system requirements for FlightGear."
> > >>
> > >> First, due to deficiencies in the compiler, it is becoming more
> > >and> more difficult to build FlightGear under MSVC 6.0.  MSVC 6.0
> > >cannot
> > >
> > > ..I take it there is a _free_ alternative?  Drop MSVC then, or,
> > > have Microsoft fix it.  Their job and code, not ours.
> > 
> > No, that wasn't what I meant (and I apologize if I didn't make
> > myself clear enough).  MSVC 7.0 (.NET) is suppose to be more
> > standards compliant and my question was geared more toward asking if
> > version 7.0 would be the preferred version of MSVC.
> 
> Speaking of STL compliancy: MSVC 6 is very good. The problem is that
> GCC is far too much forgiving and thus Linux developers don't know
> what problems they are causing us.

..how does building a policy on this, affect code stability? 
One problem with compiler slack is the possibility of sloppy 
coding, on the other hand a too strict compiler could enforce 
suboptimal to bad coding, too.  I dunno about the policy, but, 
as you say, we do have a practice on this.  ;-)

> Other stuff (e.g. the for(int i;...) problem): well that's clearly
> MSVC fault - but can easily worked around w/o causing problems to
> other compilers.
> 
> So I see no need in droping MSVC 6 support.
> 
> Especially as people are paying for it and would need to pay for an
> upgrade as well we should be very careful not to force people to
> update. Asking somebody to update e.g. from gcc 2.95 to gcc 3.2 only
> costs time, but asking somebody to update from MSVC 6 to MSVC 7 costs
> time and money....
> 
> And at least I'm not prepared to spend the money to update from the
> MSVC 6 that I bought to MSVC 7!

..valid point.  My point was dump MSVC alltogether, we're 
supporting FG on top of the Wintendos (too, for FG users), 
not the Microsoft Corp.  ;-)

> > > ..face it, what's in it for us anyway?  MSVC just diverts time
> > > and good work away from FlightGear and into Bill Gates pockets.
> 
> cheap propaganda!
> 
> Just by trying to make FGFS work with MSVC I fixed quite a few bugs in
> FGFS that didn't show up under Linux - but easily could have when
> you'd change the functions a bit or perhaps update to a newer compiler
> (e.g. uninitalized variables).
> 
> <rant>
> So all my valuable time that I donated Bill Gates for free (to use
> your argumentation) was actually to the benefit of the kommunist GCC
> crowd!</rant>

.. ;-)

> Supporting as many compilers as possible isn't only a goal of the FGFS
> project (if you don't like it, create your own project and leave) but

..no way, this is too much fun.  ;-)

> also very good to find subtle bugs

..agreed, but we also need to watch out so we don't introduce _other_
subtle bugs?  Microsoft is well known for _not_ sticking to standards. 
Even their own.

> > I suppose that following that line would also cause us to drop
> > development for Windows?  Personally, I have had nothing but
> > problems getting the Windows version of the gcc environment to run
> > for me (at all, period).  Actually, I prefer working under a GUI
> > environment so even if I could get cygwin running I would probably
> > stay under MSVC. But that's just me.
> 
> Why should I switch to CygWin? MSVC works for me (apart some FGFS
> stuff). So it must be FGFS fault if it doesn't compile/link/run. And
> as a developer I'm trying to fix that (prooven by the many MSVC
> compatability pathches I've submitted already)

..like I said in another message, you'll wanna dump it when you 
find a better tool.  It'll prove itself in the end product.  ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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