That was a quote from my German sales engineer describing the feeling of 
customers he knows. Whether he was exaggerating or not, I don't know, but it is 
a faithful report of what was said. I should have put everything from 
"ignorant" to "order" in quotes. My apologies.

________________________________

From: Dan Harding [mailto:dhard...@uiuc.edu]
Sent: Tue 1/27/2009 8:22 AM
To: John Sgammato; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Off List



No, you decided to make the discussion political when you introduced the
following:

"proof that we ignorant Americans will destroy our planet in short order."

That's incendiary rhetoric, and utterly unnecessary and off-topic.


-Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of John Sgammato
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:44 AM
To: Kelly McDaniel; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Off List

As I recall, this was a voyage of several steps.

I replied to your innocent question with some anecdotal evidence that PDFs
are seen are "green" in Germany, and printed manuals as actively
"anti-green".

Later, a third responder observed that trees are plentiful in the US, which
led to the way off-topic discussion that got us here.

IMO, it is somewhat inevitable that a political opinion will be expressed
here from time to time, and the solution is to respond to it directly rather
than to the list.

john


-----Original Message-----
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McDaniel
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 10:19 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Off List

I fear mine may have been the initial post that started the green
discussion. For that, please accept my apology.

The question I asked, though not directly related to FrameMaker, was more in
the venue of how PDFs were used without any green subtext. The point of the
issue is that I am attempting to move a PDF-only corporate habit into an
online delivery paradigm. To that end, I received many off-list responses
from folks I consider to be tops in the field. For that, I am
grateful...regards, Kelly.

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Bodvar
Bjorgvinsson
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:20 AM
To: Howard Rauch
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Off List

Howard,

I agree: this is a quality list. :-)

This list has never, and in my view, should not be limiting itself to
technical solutions regarding FM problems, although this will always be the
main issue. There is so much more about FM than that, mainly because of how
different FM is to most publishing software. One of the main questions is
about when FM is applicable and when not. A subquestion could be about the
"greens" as you call it. Discussion of that can be helpful in order to
decide how much weight one should put on the single-sourcing capabilities of
FM. So I would think it is a valid question on this list.

I'd rather keep things the way they have been for the six years I have been
on the list than having to try to search through a plethora of lists
discussing this or that border product of what would be "allowable" on the
FM list. It saves me a lot of time.

There have, from time to time, come up issues on the list that are totally
not related to FM or the list as a list. These issues have been dealt with
by the other framers and sometimes the list manager.

Thanks to all Framers on the list throughout the years. :-)

And, don't misunderstand me: I think your point qualifies as a valid point
for the list to discuss:
"What does and should the list stand for?"

Bodvar Bjorgvinsson

2009/1/25 Howard Rauch <techtransfer at sbcglobal.net>:
> One of the qualities of this list that I have always considered
important was that it was devoted to the best ways for using FrameMaker
whether for solving problems or evaluating its use. I have subscribed to
other lists and discontinued them because so many of the participants were
pushing their own personal agendas (I call them "whiners") as opposed to the
purpose of the list.
>
> I have personally noted that a few have been pursuing the green agenda
as of late (myself included) whether pro-green or anti-green. The
questionnaire about printing user manuals itself promoted neither agenda,
but (1) it has promoted a good deal of controversial responses on both sides
of the green issue and (2) it was not really a FrameMaker issue.
>
> My point is this: When any of us submit anything to the FrameMaker
list, let's make sure it deals with the use of FrameMaker and not with
personal issues.
>
> Howard Rauch
>
> Technology Transfer, Inc.
> "Linking Creators and Users of Technology"
> 933 North 18th Street
> Manitowoc WI 54220
> Office: 920-682-1528
> Cell: 920-629-0080
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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