"ignorant Americans will destroy our planet in short order" was a quote
from my German sales engineer. He had related to me the feeling among
some of his customers about hardcopy documentation. It was not a
political statement of any kind; it was an example of a factor to
consider when deciding whether or not to provide printed documentation
in addition to PDF.

The relative availability of trees in the US took us off-topic.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Harding [mailto:dhard...@uiuc.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:22 AM
To: John Sgammato; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Off List

No, you decided to make the discussion political when you introduced the

"proof that we ignorant Americans will destroy our planet in short

That's incendiary rhetoric, and utterly unnecessary and off-topic. 


-----Original Message-----
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of John Sgammato
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:44 AM
To: Kelly McDaniel; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Off List

As I recall, this was a voyage of several steps. 

I replied to your innocent question with some anecdotal evidence that
PDFs are seen are "green" in Germany, and printed manuals as actively

Later, a third responder observed that trees are plentiful in the US,
which led to the way off-topic discussion that got us here. 

IMO, it is somewhat inevitable that a political opinion will be
expressed here from time to time, and the solution is to respond to it
directly rather than to the list.


-----Original Message-----
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 10:19 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Off List

I fear mine may have been the initial post that started the green
discussion. For that, please accept my apology.

The question I asked, though not directly related to FrameMaker, was
more in the venue of how PDFs were used without any green subtext. The
point of the issue is that I am attempting to move a PDF-only corporate
habit into an online delivery paradigm. To that end, I received many
off-list responses from folks I consider to be tops in the field. For
that, I am grateful...regards, Kelly.

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Bodvar
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:20 AM
To: Howard Rauch
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Off List


I agree: this is a quality list. :-)

This list has never, and in my view, should not be limiting itself to
technical solutions regarding FM problems, although this will always be
the main issue. There is so much more about FM than that, mainly because
of how different FM is to most publishing software. One of the main
questions is about when FM is applicable and when not. A subquestion
could be about the "greens" as you call it. Discussion of that can be
helpful in order to decide how much weight one should put on the
single-sourcing capabilities of FM. So I would think it is a valid
question on this list.

I'd rather keep things the way they have been for the six years I have
been on the list than having to try to search through a plethora of
lists discussing this or that border product of what would be
"allowable" on the FM list. It saves me a lot of time.

There have, from time to time, come up issues on the list that are
totally not related to FM or the list as a list. These issues have been
dealt with by the other framers and sometimes the list manager.

Thanks to all Framers on the list throughout the years. :-)

And, don't misunderstand me: I think your point qualifies as a valid
point for the list to discuss:
"What does and should the list stand for?"

Bodvar Bjorgvinsson

2009/1/25 Howard Rauch <techtransfer at sbcglobal.net>:
> One of the qualities of this list that I have always considered
important was that it was devoted to the best ways for using FrameMaker
whether for solving problems or evaluating its use. I have subscribed to
other lists and discontinued them because so many of the participants
were pushing their own personal agendas (I call them "whiners") as
opposed to the purpose of the list.
> I have personally noted that a few have been pursuing the green agenda
as of late (myself included) whether pro-green or anti-green. The
questionnaire about printing user manuals itself promoted neither
agenda, but (1) it has promoted a good deal of controversial responses
on both sides of the green issue and (2) it was not really a FrameMaker
> My point is this: When any of us submit anything to the FrameMaker
list, let's make sure it deals with the use of FrameMaker and not with
personal issues.
> Howard Rauch
> Technology Transfer, Inc.
> "Linking Creators and Users of Technology"
> 933 North 18th Street
> Manitowoc WI 54220
> Office: 920-682-1528
> Cell: 920-629-0080
> _______________________________________________

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